
What is usury?
I don’t know much about Islam, which is why I rarely comment on it. In fact, I know little about any religion other than Christianity, and I already have my hands full with that one. But I do know that there are some things I admire about Muslims: their dedication to modesty, their insistence on patriarchy, their honoring of Mary, and their beliefs concerning usury.
Those who devour usury will not stand except as stands one whom the devil by his touch has driven to madness. That is because they say: Trade is like usury: but Allah has permitted trade and forbidden usury…. Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity, for He loves not any ungrateful sinner…. O you who believe, fear Allah and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if you are indeed believers. If you do it not, take notice of war from Allah and His messenger, but if you repent you shall have your capital sums; deal not unjustly, and you shall not be dealt with unjustly. And if the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time til it is easy for him to repay. But if you remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if you only knew.[Surah al Baqarah, verse 275-280].
This is more severe and absolute than the Catholic view, but follows the same general line that it is uncharitable to make money off of interest, especially from the consumptive borrowing of the poor. Remember that the Church doesn’t believe that morality is something purely ephemeral, but that evidence of the rightness of Christian teaching on practical matters (which matches closely with the practical teachings of all other patriarchal religions) is available through the study of nature and history (i.e. Natural Law).
If we see things crumbling down around us, it is right to consider, “What have we done wrong?” and to recognize that wrong as sin. Over time, the spread of sinful behavior tends to degrade the entire society and destroy its prosperity. If usury is destroying our financial system, then it is only sensible to note that usury is sinful and that sin tends to beget destruction, and that it is therefore evidence of our foolishness and general immorality that we are all so surprised at our current state.
The subject of usury was brought to my attention by a reader named John, in an article concerning the morality of libertarianism. Although the entire passionate screed is worth reading, here is the relevant excerpt:
And to be blunt, whatever this thing is that is called capitalism is based upon sin, as it’s foundation is constructed wholly upon usury. Yes, look it up. It is a sin in both “Testaments.”… Why is it that usury, a practice that was for 1600-plus years universally condemned in Christendom now not considered a sin even though the phraseology in the Bible stands unchanged? Instead of observing and holding steadfast to Godly commands, we now instead engage in a semantic dance of when the point of “usury” is reached. Is it when interest rates reach 12% or 22%, or is it 30%? This is idiocy, and no different that arguing that a little bit of adultery isn’t really a sin and being just a little bit pregnant out of wedlock isn’t really a sin either. With the acceptance of usury as the norm, everyone becomes a “Cafeteria Catholic” whether they admit to it or not. Everyone is just going along to get along; history and the Law of God ignored.What has this history to do with “libertarians” and other presumed selfish jerks? It is a rare Catholic who has bothered themselves to read Pope Leo XIII 1881 encyclical “Rerum Novarum” [Editor: I've read it before.] and the follow-up encyclical published in 1931,”Quadragesimo Anno”, penned by Pope Pius XI [Editor: I've read it now.]. These two works addressed the question of “usury” as well as the rapacious behavior of the original “Robber Barons” and the ravages upon the social order as a result of the Industrial Revolution.
This is an interesting premise, jives with my own general views on the subject, and goes some way to revealing an underlying cause of our societal delay. But before I agree whole-heartedly, I would like to examine the Church’s expressed opinion on the subject, and gather a bit more reputable evidence.
So what does the Church say?
From the National Catholic Register:
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in the 1990s, put usury into a dire context.
Catechism No. 2269: “The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.”
But it seems that usury is no longer condemned only at the famine level.
The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church quotes John Paul II from a Feb. 3, 2004, general catechesis. There, the Pope calls for a commitment “not to practice usury — a plague that is a disgraceful reality even in our days that can place a stronghold on the lives of many people.”
The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, promulgated at the beginning of Benedict’s pontificate, seems to broaden the sense of usury even more. One of the answers to the question (508) “What is forbidden by the seventh commandment?” is:“Also forbidden is tax evasion or business fraud; willfully damaging private or public property; usury; corruption; the private abuse of common goods; work deliberately done poorly; and waste.”
Pope Benedict XVI underlined the word usury in his commentary on the Psalms on Nov. 2, 2005, later that year.
“The heart of this fidelity to the divine word consists in a fundamental choice of charity towards the poor and needy: ‘The good man takes pity and lends … Open-handed, he gives to the poor” (vv. 5, 9). The person of faith, then, is generous; respecting the biblical norms, he offers help to his brother in need, asking nothing in return (Deuteronomy 15: 7-11), and without falling into the shame of usury, which destroys the lives of the poor.’”
In Rerum Novarum, we have the following:
In any case we clearly see, and on this there is general agreement, that some opportune remedy must be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class: for the ancient workingmen’s guilds were abolished in the last century, and no other protective organization took their place. Public institutions and the laws set aside the ancient religion.Hence, by degrees it has come to pass that working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself.
In Quadragesimo Anno, we read:
104. Accordingly, when directing Our special attention to the changes which the capitalist economic system has undergone since Leo’s time, We have in mind the good not only of those who dwell in regions given over to “capital” and industry, but of all mankind.
105. In the first place, it is obvious that not only is wealth concentrated in our times but an immense power and despotic economic dictatorship is consolidated in the hands of a few, who often are not owners but only the trustees and managing directors of invested funds which they administer according to their own arbitrary will and pleasure.
106. This dictatorship is being most forcibly exercised by those who, since they hold the money and completely control it, control credit also and rule the lending of money. Hence they regulate the flow, so to speak, of the life-blood whereby the entire economic system lives, and have so firmly in their grasp the soul, as it were, of economic life that no one can breathe against their will.
107. This concentration of power and might, the characteristic mark, as it were, of contemporary economic life, is the fruit that the unlimited freedom of struggle among competitors has of its own nature produced, and which lets only the strongest survive; and this is often the same as saying, those who fight the most violently, those who give least heed to their conscience.
108. This accumulation of might and of power generates in turn three kinds of conflict. First, there is the struggle for economic supremacy itself; then there is the bitter fight to gain supremacy over the State in order to use in economic struggles its resources and authority; finally there is conflict between States themselves, not only because countries employ their power and shape their policies to promote every economic advantage of their citizens, but also because they seek to decide political controversies that arise among nations through the use of their economic supremacy and strength.
109. The ultimate consequences of the individualist spirit in economic life are those which you yourselves, Venerable Brethren and Beloved Children, see and deplore: Free competition has destroyed itself; economic dictatorship has supplanted the free market; unbridled ambition for power has likewise succeeded greed for gain; all economic life has become tragically hard, inexorable, and cruel. To these are to be added the grave evils that have resulted from an intermingling and shameful confusion of the functions and duties of public authority with those of the economic sphere – such as, one of the worst, the virtual degradation of the majesty of the State, which although it ought to sit on high like a queen and supreme arbitress, free from all partiality and intent upon the one common good and justice, is become a slave, surrendered and delivered to the passions and greed of men. And as to international relations, two different streams have issued from the one fountain-head: On the one hand, economic nationalism or even economic imperialism; on the other, a no less deadly and accursed internationalism of finance or international imperialism whose country is where profit is.
To the critics of Catholic economic teachings
The timeless truth and contemporary applicability of both of these excerpts immediately jumped up and smacked me in the face. These men obviously knew what they were talking about, all principled objections to the contrary. They were not talking about “pie in the sky” or “wouldn’t it be nice if everything were perfect and our economic ideas always lead to ideal results”. They were discussing the real positive and negative outcomes of modern economic concepts that they saw around them, and the need to balance all aspects of Christian economic and social teachings when crafting economic policies.
They saw that leaving people to die in the streets from hunger led to much needless suffering and eventually to war. Desperate people do desperate things, and they were aware that part of a state’s defense of its citizens includes their protection from the desperation of their neighbors, and the minimal provision of the citizenry (who contribute to the general system through their consumption taxes, production of labor, participation in government, and willingness to aid in the defense of the country, among other things).
No, private charity was not sufficient to prevent severe, mass deprivation. A more well-designed system of private charity might do a better job. Remember, neither encyclical states that welfare is superior to charity, merely that the state should step in to protect the general welfare of its citizens when charity has failed. So the goal should be to create a charity network that is less prone to failure, and which protects all of the citizenry. But such a system is a topic for a separate post, as it is not within the scope of this article.
What we must remember is that economics is a scientific field where the correctness of the theory must be confirmed through proofs and experimentation. If the experiment fails again and again, the theory and/or the experiment (i.e. the application of the theory) needs to be recalibrated. While there is much historical and natural evidence of the wisdom of core libertarian economic concepts, like any other economic theory it was created by man and is therefore incomplete and incorrect. There are weaknesses to the theory, as there are to any other (distributivism included).
Reader Leon noted:
As to the encyclicals mentioned by John above, neither was ex cathedra. This is probably why some Catholic Libertarians, while agreeing with much of what is said in the “Rights and Duties of Capital and Labor” still have mixed views on usury, what counts as usury, and whether “upper” limits can even be imposed, let alone established without some form of abuse and violent force being used. As the Papacy continues to look to the Bible, they will see more on how things work in the world and revise. Pope Leo XIII was great but he was not the final or only say.
This is true, but rather irrelevant. Although encyclicals aren’t necessarily morally binding (as in, disagreeing with them is not sinful), they are morally authoritative. That means that they contain truths about Catholicism that should be taken seriously into account when crafting policy, making decisions, or forming opinions.
The fact that Quadragesimo Anno was written right before the outbreak of WWII should all give us a moment’s pause. Do not assume that libertarianism wasn’t tried, but that it was tried and its internal flaws — however slight — led to the eventual decay of its results. This is the natural progression of any economic or political system because no such system is flawless. What both of these Popes described was this natural decay. That is not because they are “socialists” or “heretical”, but because they were believing their own lying eyes. Libertarianism eventually decays because a completely free market will eventually be overrun by the most despicable and immoral participants, who care little for the protection of future prosperity and who will go to any length to accomplish their present goals. To bring us back to today’s topic, usury is one of the reasons that libertarianism tends to decay, so a libertarian who is sincere in wanting the success of his community will take that into account and not dismiss these Popes’ concerns outright.
Here’s what a Distributivist, John C. Médaille, has to say about usury. In his excellent book, entitled Toward a Truly Free Market (which I am reading, and which will be quoted liberally on this blog in the future), he says the following:
Despite the fact that Keynesian transfers now consume a huge portion of the federal and state budgets, these transfers have been, for some years now, insufficient to balance supply and demand, and for some time now the economy has depended chiefly on the third method, usury or consumer credit.
Here we must distinguish between lending for investment and usury. Investment means giving money to firms and entrepreneurs in order to expand production and increase the wealth of society. In this case, interest is merely the investor’s participation in the profits; it is the “wage” of the capital supplied, and the one who supplies it is entitled in justice to that wage. Usury, on the other hand, is lending money at interest to increase consumption. Nothing is added to the wealth of society, however much may be added to the wealth of the lender. Since nothing is produced, there is no valid claim to profit. Interest payments in this case merely constitute a transfer of wealth from the borrower to the lender, but no net increase in the social stock of wealth. In fact, wealth is actually “used up” in this process without making a contribution to production, hence the name “usury”
This is the plastic economy, an economy based on credit cards. To the extent that an economy depends on consumer credit, it is, quite literally, a house of cards, and will be as unstable as those structures usually are. In fact, usury is the most destructive way of increasing demand. Usury actually delays the problem, postpones the crisis to a future period. This is because a borrowed dollar used to increase demand today must be paid back tomorrow and hence will decrease demand in a future period by that same dollar — plus interest. This requires more borrowing, which of course only makes the problem worse. Eventually, the system falls of its own weight, as credit is extended to an increasingly weakened consumer, and a credit crisis results.
I think his differentiation between usury and investment make sense, and point to a “third way” that all Christian could support with a clear conscience. But this is still rather vague, and doesn’t really provide us with a concrete guideline to follow, in matters of interest-morality.
What does Christian finance look like?
The topic of usury was again triggered at breakfast today, by an article in the Financial Times concerning Islamic finance. That got me thinking some more, and wondering… what would Christian-flavored finance be like?
Small, local banks? Credit unions? Even the Vatican Bank issues credit cards. Is that allowed by tradition? Are they allowed if they charge a fee, but not interest? If interest, how high is allowed? What about mortgages, which have caused the purchase price of homes to balloon? What about the bond market? Is promising to pay interest on a bond a form of debtor-determined usury?
Perhaps we should all give this some more thought. I am certainly thinking now.
(This is a repeat. I will be reviewing the rest of the book next week.)

Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Fiat currency, fractional reserve banking and inflationary policies necessitate compound interest and usury. The rot goes all the way to the top. Our government is not a Christian one, and increasingly acts more and more immorally.
Also forbidden is tax evasion
Ha! Right, because funding a morass of a government that habitually warmongers, steals, kills innocents, contributes to social decay/injustice, and funds other sinful behaviors is SO holy. Romans 13/2409 of the Catechism makes some SERIOUS assumptions per its claims regarding tax evasion. When you are wrapped up in a completely broken system, the rules change. This topic deserves its own post so I’ll just leave it at that.
Anyway, back to usury – I can agree with the investment aspect of interest. That makes sense – but I still wonder if we are refusing to call a spade a spade. I really, really like the idea of Islamic finance, especially the idea that “lending” should be done in equity purchases. Seems like it does a lot better job of building a network of healthy interdependence, rather than setting up a bunch of domino-like balance sheets that are ready to topple if a big bank eats it.
the rightness of Christian teaching on practical matters is available through the study of nature and history
The number 2 rule of personal finance (after “spend less money than you make”) – pay down your consumer debt, and once you do, pay off your credit cards monthly. A non-Christian truth that recognizes that usury is poisonous.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Yes!! Distributism FTW!! Screw Marx, screw Mises, screw Keynes, and screw Hayek. G. K. Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc are geniuses.
Isn’t usury a pretty serious sin? I personally believe that it is immoral for a Christian to be a banker. I also have an Andrew Jackson-style hatred of banks and bankers which got worse due to the bailouts.
I’ll polish up my 3rd Way article soon and submit it. I have finally found an economic system that I like-a mixed 3rd Way economy combining distributism on the local and regional level and Christian Corporativism/National Syndicalism(of the Catholic Iberian type, not the nihilistic Italian type) on the national level.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Alte, you make several great points. Catholic Knight says that Catholics should not be either Capitalists or Socialists-both are wrong and have people slaving for the economy when it should be the other way around.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Yes, Rusty, I do not see why it is immoral to refuse to fund the Amerikan Government. It seems worse to do so than not.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Isn’t usury a pretty serious sin? I personally believe that it is immoral for a Christian to be a banker.
Usury (which most Catholics would say is excessive interest, whilst distributionists would say is any interest) is a mortal sin, but banking (holding and managing the wealth of others) isn’t sinful if it is done according to the laws of the Church. Even the Vatican has a bank, and it distributes credit cards. The problem is: at what point is interest excessive?
http://www.askthepriest.org/askthepriest/2005/10/never_a_borrowe.html
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Svar – I don’t know about the whole ‘screw Mises’ and ‘screw Hayek’ thing. The guys are economists, and are generally dead on when answering economic questions. The problem that many libertarians have is that they believe their function is to maximize economic production, and can’t fathom that people are people, not capital.
I’ve never really seen where Hazlitt, Friedman, Mises and Hayek ignore the humanity of people. If anything Friedman especially recognizes that it’s important to set the rules correctly as he says the only ethical/moral mandate a corporation has is to be as productive as possible under the law/social norms. In Economics in One Lesson, Hazlitt repeatedly states that the best economic decision may not necessarily mean the correct societal one (and then proceeds to demolish all sorts of economic fallacies, LOVE THAT GUY).
Austrian economics is just really good at describing economics, currency, and the business cycle. It’s not a moral imperative (although it helps tremendously in drawing moral conclusions) and anyone looking to it for moral guidance is fully deserving of your ridicule.
Alte
September 7, 2011
I agree, Rusty. The Austrians have a solid reputation for macroeconomics, which is why I read their material. Distributionism doesn’t try to deny the truth in Austrian economics, but attempts to come up with a “most moral” structure based upon it. I think the strength of distributism is that it takes a very long view to economic choices. Usury being a good example of that. But I will know a bit more after finishing the book.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
How do distributist mortgages work?
Matt
September 7, 2011
“The problem that many libertarians have is that they believe their function is to maximize economic production”
I have to wonder where you’ve been sampling your libertarians from. Our function is to maximize human self-determination. To whatever extent we succeed, economic production tends to rise, because people want to get stuff, and most of us also want to _make_ stuff. But that’s a side effect, not the main goal.
Alte
September 7, 2011
How do distributist mortgages work?
It would depend. If it were an investment property, you would charge interest. If it were a mere residence, then you could perhaps charge fees in a “rent to own” manner. You certainly couldn’t have an ARM or subprime mortgage. Maybe no mortgages at all would be best.
They differentiate between “earning a wage on an investment” and “lending money at interest for consumption”. In the latter case, wealth is literally “used up”, hence the term “usury”.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Libertarianism is focused most on economic growth and freedom, whilst distributionism values stability and the conservation of wealth more strongly. Each path carries risks: distributionism risks missing opportunities, libertarianism can overplay it’s hand.
With distributism you will probably never boom, but you will have a more resilient economy and any busts will be shallower. On the downside, technical progress and large increases in material wealth are associated with booms, so you risk languishing in a backward state; stasis.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Fixed rate mortgages are allowed?
My understanding of sub-prime mortgages is that they involve little to no deposit. That is to be banned?
Rent-to-own: so you rent at a fixed rate and take ownership after a fixed number of payments, but can walk away before all the payments? Do you pay a deposit that is greater than about a months rent? Who do you pay this rent to?
How do people buy houses?
Alte
September 7, 2011
With cash, as they used to. House prices are only as high as they are because of mortgages. Without mortgages, the house prices would completely crash down to whatever people could afford to pay for them.
Distributionism is an economic movement, so there are disagreements over the details.
About RTO: I suppose you would pay rent to the previous owner, at a slightly higher rate than plain rent. I know that there are houses around here that are offered with this scheme or something similar (lease with an option to buy), so it is being done already. The main benefit is that you don’t take out a loan, you can end the contract by purchasing the house at any time, part of the premium you’ve been charged is credited toward your purchase (money you forfeit if you walk away), and you can walk away at any time without debt.
The evil of usury being that it destroys wealth and saddles the poor with debt they cannot afford.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
I have to wonder where you’ve been sampling your libertarians from.
Pick any Reason article and read the comments. I’m a big L and little l libertarian, so I agree with you – maximizing citizen’s freedom _should_ be the goal. I can’t really see any legitimacy to government other than by Bastiat’s definition, that government is simply the aggregated rights of people to protect their life, liberty and property.
I won’t even accuse a majority of libertarians of having the problem that I described, I’ve just noticed a strain of libertarian thought that justifies itself with a cost-benefit analysis/production potential. Some people can’t fathom having any restriction on corporations, but refuse to recognize that corporations are a product of the state in the first place (and a pretty abstract one at that) because they see it as a hindrance to business and profit potential. Well, that’s just stupid – not all costs can be distilled into a dollar value.
Take immigration for example. There are many libertarians that believe that it’s a libertarian ideal to have completely open borders, with their main argument being that we should not restrict the marketplace and allow labor to flow where it needs to be lest we will not produce at the highest possible level. These people completely ignore the social costs of open-border, anti-assimilation policies. Cheap labor is great, but is it always worth the huge increase in ethnic/racial dissonance and destruction of culture on both sides? Nope.
Double E
September 7, 2011
Distributism– please explain how to get the property widely distributed without men with badges and guns forcing out of the hands of the current owners– in other words an abrogation of private ownership. If any economic system requires men with badges and guns to enforce it, then it is not a third way. It is the statist way. We already have that. It simply becomes a race to the bottom to see who can grab the most spoils. It’s change you can believe in.
Americans are choosing the men with badges and guns rather than dig out any ingenuity they may have once had. I suspect that they will soon feel the sting of the whip very heavily on their back.
Alte
September 7, 2011
When wealth has been so concentrated within the hands of so few, I think “men with badges and guns” is all you are left with. Otherwise you’ll have some wallowing in decadence while the masses starve and work as their slave-labor, as the rich drive the country into the ground and sell it off to foreign speculators. When you live a kleptocracy, the rules aren’t the same as when you’re settling virgin soil with your fellow pioneers.
You can’t simply “start off with the current state as a given”. That simply won’t work. There is no ability to reform the current system.
The first step in redistribution would be total currency and tax reform, and perhaps a jubilee.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
If any economic system requires men with badges and guns to enforce it, then it is not a third way.
When you live a kleptocracy, the rules aren’t the same as when you’re settling virgin soil with your fellow pioneers.
Both true comments with some pretty scary implications. We’ve dug ourselves a real deep hole with no good way of getting out of it without simply letting it all crash and burn (and even then, I don’t know a fiery rebirth would be all the great either).
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Alte:
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2011/09/germany-chickens-out.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fvoxpopoli+%28Vox+Popoli%29
Alte
September 7, 2011
You also have to remember that Catholics don’t view private property the same way as everyone else. It is ours to administer privately, but we don’t “own” it, in the deepest sense of the world. The entire Earth was given to us to steward, not to plunder, and poor stewards get replaced.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Do you think the number of buyers would stay about the same?
Will the price get be reduced enough for people to buy while not being so low that sellers simply choose to rent rather than sell (or sell to rich landlords who intend to rent rather than live in a property)?
Do distributist have rules to prevent a concentration of property in the hands of wealthy landlords?
Is it actually a good thing for less people to buy and instead rent?
Fourmyle of Ceres
September 7, 2011
Say you get a $100 loan from your Dad. Does it matter whether he charges you 10% interest or a $10 fee? No, it does not.
He can even build in penalty fees for late payment ($1 for each late payment, cumulatively) that mimic compound interest.
And this is exactly how Islamic banking work. They don’t charge “interest”, but the amount of money they extract from you is exactly the same as a Western bank. Or maybe slightly less, because Western banks nail you with both interest charges AND fees.
I don’t think we can condemn all interest payments while allowing fees, if the effects on the borrower are exactly the same. To do otherwise is to make meaningless distinctions, like “It’s okay to cut off heads with a sword but not a guillotine.”
There are really only two solutions-
1. Give up on finance entirely. No one may borrow or lend money; it may only be given away freely. Or interest/fees can be tracked as voluntary “thanks” from the gift receiver, but there is no enforcement mechanism.
Naturally this would mean the end of modern civilization as we know it, and we would return to Bronze Age level societal organizations, since no one could afford to buy things like tractors to farm multi-thousand-acre farms. Heck, society couldn’t even build those tractors because no one could raise the capital necessary to build a tractor factory. Billions would die of privation, and untold future billions would never be born.
2. Decide at what level of interest/fees banking becomes “usury”, and cap it just below that. Allow for easy bankruptcy. This way no one becomes a debt slave, but entrepreneurs and businessmen can get the capital necessary to start businesses, and families can get the capital necessary to buy a home. Bad credit risks would be encouraged to go back and build up their credit for a few more years.
Double E
September 7, 2011
“When wealth has been so concentrated within the hands of so few, I think “men with badges and guns” is all you are left with. Otherwise you’ll have some wallowing in decadence while the masses starve and work as their slave-labor, as the rich drive the country into the ground and sell it off to foreign speculators. When you live a kleptocracy, the rules aren’t the same as when you’re settling virgin soil with your fellow pioneers.”
That class warfare comment is channeling Marx, but I guess you can’t make omelettes without breaking a few eggs?
I’ve lived in a formerly communist country. I’ve seen what too many men with badges and guns do. Watching those old burned-out run-down factories in the countryside no longer running because some fool with a badge and a gun commanded that it be built in the first place with no rhyme or reason. I’ve seen how it destroyed the minds of generations of people.
As for wallowing in decadence, poverty doesn’t cause that. Your direction of causality is wrong. Decadence causes poverty– not the other way around. Americans are some of the richest in the history of the world and they are decadent to a level rarely seen before. Look at this link
http://tinyurl.com/tsarape
Let’s personalize this. Hundreds of millions of Americans who believe in badges and guns think that my wife should have a TSA screener stick his hand inside her vagina for the privilege of getting on an airplane. That is decadence. Remember that these same Americans want a TSA screener to stick his hand inside your child’s underwear as well to feel safe.
You’re right that the current system can’t be reformed. But we already have distributism / socialism / fascism / communism / totalitarianism. This is what men with guns and badges bring.
The men with badges and guns are the ones who say that you can have your children taken away from you at any time based on an anonymous complaint. They are the ones who say that you can’t homeschool your children when you return to Germany. They are the ones who can forcefully medicate your children without your permission or even knowledge. They are the ones who believe that your children should be subjected to sexual activity in airports. They are the ones who take money out of the hands of your husband who worked hard to earn it.
If I bring your argument of supporting men with badges and guns to enforce one’s will, I would have to use them to enforce my will on anyone who doesn’t agree with me. Take what is not mine to support my supporters. Kill off or enslave the enemies. Distribute their property.
I do not mind enforcing my will upon others– the mere fact that I carry a firearm when in the States is proof. But I am always hesitant to interfere in the lives of others if they haven’t interfered in mine– even with good intentions. Gunpoint medicine isn’t really medicine.
There is no stasis. All political and economic systems are dynamic. They are moving toward one endpoint or the other– more men with guns and badges or less.
Men with badges and guns are the antithesis of a society which is based on this: “Let’s make a deal. Live and let live.”
I am loathe to quote Ayn Rand but she had one quote which has always stayed with me– “When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, men become the tools of men. Blood, whips, and guns – or gold. Take your choice – there is no other – and your time is running out.”
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Anarchist?
What system are you proposing that does not involve men with guns and badges?
Gneisenau
September 7, 2011
The contrast between Distributism and Austrianism can’t be clearer. According to Von Mises’ own system of “Human Action” God cannot exist. Von Mises likened Jesus Christ to a Bolshevik and proclaimed himself an adherent of “1789.” Rothbard believed it was okay for parents to starve children, if the children abrogated their end of the “contract” that he believed was at the heart of the family. Hayek himself admitted that his conception of society would come at the expense of the spiritual.
People say “well their critique of socialism is really good” – So what? The Popes relying on centuries of philosophy dating back to Aristotle have thoroughly critiqued socialism. Christians would do well to ignore Austrianism since as others have noted here, it is socialism’s brother. They just disagree on how to best maximize human freedom and achieve material prosperity all which is antithetical to a Christian world view.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
What system are you proposing that does not involve men with guns and badges?
http://freekeene.com/
HIPSTER HIPPIES!
Svar
September 7, 2011
I don’t understand this belief that conservative Americans tend have about the state being evil. The state is a just like a gun or a knife-a neutral tool.
Double E, there are several Third Ways besides Capitalism and Socialism. You are advocating Plutocracy. Economic Libertarianism leads to Plutocracy and no one wants that. No one wants socialism either. I also find it ridiculous when you said we already have distributism because we don’t. We have Capitalism and we have Socialism.
Also, the Inter-War Right, just like the old reactionary monarchist conservatives, were anti-”Enlightenment” and pioneered several 3rd Ways. They are not Communists. Capitalism is the 1st Way, Socialism is the 2nd Way, and everything else are the 3rd Ways.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Double E –
I definitely appreciate the fact that you realize what “law” is – mandates that we are willing to point guns at each other over.
I wish that question was asked before any law was passed. “Are we really willing to point a gun at someone if they do not obey this law?” Ultimate law litmus test.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
I don’t understand this belief that conservative Americans tend have about the state being evil.
We read history. We look at our own government. We see how all governments inevitably become less and less Godly. More evil than you can shake a stick at.
I think you might be putting a little too much faith in the coming of the Great Gaulish Christian Warrior King. When kings have been good, it’s because they did not bother their people unless necessary. Government governs best when it governs least, regardless of whether its aristocracy, monarchy, or republic. As I’ve said before, even if I were to accept monarchy, I’d still think a monarch would be ethically bound to be a minarchist monarch.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Rusty, I completely agree with the line “government governs best when it governs least”. I agree that monarchies should govern least.
Regardless, this doesn’t take into consideration that the Amerikan governments sucks so much ass, not because it’s a government because it’s not on our side. A government on our side(whether a Christian Republic or a Christian Monarchy) is better than one neutral to or opposed to our side.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Rusty, I may be putting too much faith into my Great Imperial Christian Kaiser, but what other option is there? Listening to the retarded whims of the Crowd? No! Look where that has gotten us. I’ll take the Kaiser over this bullshit anyday.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
The contrast between Distributism and Austrianism can’t be clearer. According to Von Mises’ own system of “Human Action” God cannot exist. Von Mises likened Jesus Christ to a Bolshevik and proclaimed himself an adherent of “1789.” Rothbard believed it was okay for parents to starve children, if the children abrogated their end of the “contract” that he believed was at the heart of the family. Hayek himself admitted that his conception of society would come at the expense of the spiritual.
And the Nazis were genocide loving fascists who happened to really like Wagner. We can still like Wagner, without taking all the evil/craziness along with it. Also to quote Rothbard:
“The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die.[4] The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.[5] (Again, whether or not a parent has a moral rather than a legally enforceable obligation to keep his child alive is a completely separate question.) ”
He didn’t think it was OK for parents to starve their children, he was an anarchist – he did not believe that the State had the right to legally enforce a parent to feed their kid. That’s a far cry from saying it’s morally acceptable to starve your kids. If the state CAN enforce feeding kids, its a slippery slope to the state issuing protein pills and monitoring everyone’s diet and destroying the family by government management.
Keep the straw men at home, kids.
the cottage child
September 7, 2011
How do distributist mortgages work?
I thought it would follow more of a building and loan model? – no nat’l bank involvement, but local lending in cooperative/credit union type institutions, or perhaps builders themselves finance the homes instead of the double mark-up of retailing the house and the mortgage both?
If any economic system requires men with badges and guns to enforce it, then it is not a third way.
I don’t think you can begin a moral uprising by immoral means and expect to blessed for it. It will require that most people not own homes and starve the mortgage beast, though that will serve to drive up rents as is the case with the current mortgage walk-off scenario, and most every house has a mortgage regardless so maybe not, or opt only for owner or small institution financing on very short terms, less than 10 years – no financing cars or other consumer goods, growing at least some of our own food, preferably cooperatively, and purchasing the rest through other coops (the farmers market, csa, etc), and essentially refusing to purchase anything from a corporate entity or that was produced overseas. I don’t think you can just hit a reset button, either, and expect people to know what they’re supposed to do with themselves. People are half-zombie as it is and we haven’t even come close to the bottom of the hill. Unless mass die off due to starvation and murder suicides from depression are the goal, it’s going to require a LOT of incremental changes by people who are living the example. I don’t know, maybe we could have reeducation camps that play Joel Salatin videos over and over again.
The first step in redistribution would be total currency and tax reform, and perhaps a jubilee.
I don’t disagree with the first two, of course, but I think dissolution of large lending institutions would be more important than an entire absolution of debt or property redistribution – perhaps reevaluating existing loans on property – as in if a homeowner has paid in total what would have fulfilled a 15 year mortgage, then it’s done. No more 30 and 40 year enslavement where the interest of ownership always remains with the lender. Also, the credit card companies would just be left high and dry except for principal – no interest would be allowed to accumulate or carry over, period, which means they’d stop issuing credit cards and the consumer credit problem would largely be solved, and the bad business model of retailers attaching themselves to large financial institutions would disappear.
I don’t think you can have a true “jubilee” anymore than I think you can have true libertarianism – it’s all great until your property reverts and the 10k your BIL owes you gets written off, or until the pot-head imposes his freedom on some sahm by running her over and then gets butthurt that yes, her family is coming for his house. I do think moral capitalism can work – the difficulty will be in controlling for morality, but it would be much easier to compel if the vehicle for consumerism was severely limited.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Rusty, I may be putting too much faith into my Great Imperial Christian Kaiser, but what other option is there? Listening to the retarded whims of the Crowd? No! Look where that has gotten us. I’ll take the Kaiser over this bullshit anyday.
Lol, well you asked why people like me completely and utterly distrust the State…
However, I do understand your sentiments. The game is being played, governments exist, so why not aim for a strong Christian one? A valid question. If I knew we could have sustainable one, then I’d be all for it. But I doubt it can happen. I’m not counting on it, that’s for sure.
Svar
September 7, 2011
I don’t know, Rusty, Gniesiau makes some good points. Capitalism is a product of the Enlightenment-a movement away from God-and socialism is a reaction to Capitalism. It’s time we looked outside of the Captitalism vs. Socialism paradigm. There are several other options. Distributism is actually also known as “micro-capitalism”.
Also, Gniesiau makes the great point that anti-socialist criticisms by Mises, Rothbard, and Hayek are redundant because the Popes have been doing that FOREVER. It’s like with the Physician’s Oath in the Geneva Convention, what’s the point? Hippocrates, anyone?
Svar
September 7, 2011
But, Rusty, what option do you propose? It’s either living under the authoritarian rule underneath an autocratic leader on our side, living under the authoritarian rule of an autocratic leader not on our side, or living underneath the authoritarian rule of the Crowd. Which option do you prefer?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Must have missed those good points. All I saw were straw men, ad hominems, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, etc.
Guess what? Aristotle wasn’t a Judeo-Christian either! Maybe we should just not listen to anything he has to say.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Look, I’m willing to live under a distributist Christian Republic even though I don’t trust Republics because of how easily they fall apart compared to Monarchies.
It seems that Monarchy is far more stable than a Republic, though.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Aristotle may not have been a Judeo-Christian but atleast he wasn’t a modernist or a secularist. There is much wisdom in the words of the Old Pagans(Socrates, Hippocrates, Plato, Aesop?). Any unChristian sentiment from a pre-Christ philosopher is not anti-Christian, but unChristian sentiments from a post-Christ philosopher is anti-Christian.
But yes, you have to separate the good from the bad. I do read Julius Evola and Yukio Mishima afterall.
Matt
September 7, 2011
“The entire Earth was given to us to steward, not to plunder, and poor stewards get replaced.”
Poor stewards get replaced _by the owner_. The owner is God. God will doubtless have words for me about whether I’ve been a good steward or a poor one, once I die. Here on Earth while I’m still alive, I have to get by on conscience, scripture, and the advice of the Church…all of which, to varying degrees, are His gifts to me and to all mankind.
The state is not God. The state, even at its historical very best, is a poor proxy for God. Indeed, the median state is a middling proxy for Satan, and many states are excellent proxies for him.
If I’m to be judged by God on the question of how well I handled what he gave to me, I want to ensure the minimum possible intervention in that handling by anyone except me and God. I don’t want to spend the time after my death listening to an angry lecture along the lines of “you had AMPLE evidence that these forces were directed by — and working toward — evil…so WHY did you let them tell you what to do with MY gifts?”.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Svar – and we both read Roissy, lol
Matt – excellent comment, especially the angry lecture part
Svar
September 7, 2011
Also, this view makes alot of sense from not just a religious and moral sense but a strictly utilitarian and political sense as well. Just think about it: right-wing social populism + left-wing economic populism. Dangerous combo. Just ask the Fascist parties of Europe and Latin America.
The Old Democrats used to be this way. Unfortunately those bastards are more concerned with fag-prance rights, Slutwalks, and parasitic government bureaucrats than protecting the small farmer from Big Agro, the small businessman from Big Business, or the American worker from getting railroaded by either outsourcing or illegal immigrants.
Whatever happened to Democrats like Teddy Roosevelt?
The Republicans are shit too. They pretend to care about the middle-class but they have shown over and over again that their first priority is Big Business. They could care less about our values, our heritage, our faith.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“Svar – and we both read Roissy, lol”
Haha, that guy. Roissy is hilarious.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Back to usury – something that I was thinking about at lunch… You never hear priests telling people to get their checkbooks in order during a sermon. Consumer debt can easily turn sinful and usury is definitely a two-party sin (while I’m sure God shows mercy to the desperate, sin is still bad).
Scale that up to national debt. We’ve just about run our national credit card to the point of melting. Sinful? I’d say definitely.
Svar
September 7, 2011
http://theworldlovesitsown.blogspot.com/2011/08/utopia.html
“Everyone has their own vision of Utopia. For the neo-conservatives, it is a world dominated by a hegemonic USA for the benefit of oligarchic industries under the banner of bringing democracy to the world. Yuk!
For the left, utopia is a Malthusian place where the rich are taxed out of existence; everyone works for the government in one form or the other and society is ruled by an intellectual elite from Harvard, Yale, Oxford and Cambridge. Yuk again!”
joanna
September 7, 2011
“You never hear priests telling people to get their checkbooks in order during a sermon.”
This has been an interesting conversation. I don’t have anything to say, except that recently the pastor of the church we were attending sporadically gave a big sermon about debt. It was an excellent sermon and in the end he intimated that you should stop giving tithe until you are completely out of debt. We took his advice and used our saved up three months of tithe, some savings and our tax return to pay off our debt. We’re not completely convinced it was the right thing to do. Not give tithe? Hmmm… But I was impressed that he gave a sermon about not being in debt.
Aaron Traas
September 7, 2011
It’s not about the amount of interest, it’s about the intent of the loan. A loan can be just if it’s for production/growth of business, and if the lender shares in the risk of the borrower. Lending, with interest, for consumer purchases, or anything other than genuine investment in production, is usury.
The burden of sin for usury is on the lender, not the borrower. I highly recommend “Toward a Truly Free Market” by John C. Médaille: http://l.traas.org/medaille — best definitions of usury and great summary of how distributism can work. He’s a bit of a Georgeist, but then, so am I.
Aaron Traas
September 7, 2011
Ugh… I skimmed over the fact that Alte linked to this book. Sorry.
Aaron Traas
September 7, 2011
They wouldn’t. Prices, however, would adjust; housing prices are inflated because mortgages give people more purchasing power than they’d have to begin with. Also, distributists (who aren’t 100% unified by any means) would have various mechanisms in play to both keep land prices low and disincentivize hoarding of land by the wealthy.
van Rooinek
September 7, 2011
Svar: “Whatever happened to Democrats like Teddy Roosevelt?”
He was a Republican. You’re confusing him with his 4th cousin FDR, who was a Democrat.
Cecil Harvey
September 7, 2011
The prices would be reduced to a point where people could buy land and build modest houses. By definition, the prices couldn’t be above what people could afford.
Look at housing sizes today vs. our grandparents’ generation. My grandfather grew up in a house with 6 siblings that was less than half the size of mine. People now take it as a given that to raise 2 kids, you need a 4-bedroom house with a seperate living room, family room, pool, fancy deck, patio, 3-car garage, etc. People have too much stuff, kids get too much “personal space”, etc.
joanna
September 7, 2011
“People have too much stuff, kids get too much “personal space”, etc.”
We’ve crammed our six kids into three bedrooms and only because the boy can’t sleep with the girls, otherwise they’d be in two bedrooms. We have a big house we got for cheap, but I often think that we would have been better to find a smaller house with more land. Land is flipping expensive in Florida though.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“He was a Republican. You’re confusing him with his 4th cousin FDR, who was a Democrat.”
Oh, my bad. Well, FDR sucks, but Teddy Roosevelt was great.
van Rooinek
September 7, 2011
An evangelical Protestant — and precious metals dealer — Jason Hommel, has attacked the usury issue.
Here are links to a couple of his articles on usury:
http://silverstockreport.com/revised/Usury_Enslaves(revised).html
http://silverstockreport.com/essays/Freedom_from_Usury.html
and on paper money
http://www.silverstockreport.com/revised/commandments(revised).html
Also, heed the US Constitution. Article 1 Sec. 10:
“No State shall…. make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts”
And finally, take note that Islamic law mandates gold and silver money, and denounces paper debt-money as sin.
http://www.e-dinar.com/html/1_3.html
Jehu
September 7, 2011
Sharia compliant finance works very much in practice like most Western finance. Compound interest is replaced by dividends and fees, as it is always in theory closer to an equity partnership than a debt one. In addition, they’re always what we’d call non-recourse loans (i.e., the lender has most of the skin in the game, as he’s more of a silent business partner than a lender). I’m pretty sure you could walk most mortgages with a bunch of distinctions w/o a difference changed under the umbrella of Sharia, but only in non-recourse states.
Stuki
September 7, 2011
“Libertarianism eventually decays because a completely free market will eventually be overrun by the most despicable and immoral participants, who care little for the protection of future prosperity and who will go to any length to accomplish their present goals.”
If you think it through, the problem you are trying to avoid, exists only to the extent markets are not completely free. How would someone even begin to “overrun” completely free people? After all, inherent to being free, is the freedom to get out of the way of whoever wants to overrun you. Only once there are mechanisms in place restricting peoples freedom, can (and, for sure, will) these mechanisms be repurposed by the most immoral.
Contemporary philosophically astute Libertarians are largely anarchists now, for that very reason. In anarchy, when the immorals take over, people can exit. And the immorals will, over time, gain power, since in any organization (save possibly churches, assuming divine intervention), the people willing to go the furthest to achieve power, are the ones who will end up with the most power. It’s inevitable. Hence, not only will some garden variety immoral get to the top, but the single most immoral and unscrupulous of all the immorals. The only defense those further down the unscrupulous ladder have, is their ability to bolt for greener pastures. Hence, rather than continuing the age old, doomed to fail, experiment of coming up with the “best” government; the focus should be on making leaving any given government behind as easy and cost free as possible. That WILL put hard limits on the scumminess of those in charge, something nothing else will do.
Chris
September 7, 2011
Well, there is a fun essay looking at How Calvin dealt with this. I think the agenda of the writer is to use that methodology elsewhere — which is fundamentally dishonest as Calvin is generally acknowledged by evangelical thinkers to be on the side of the traditionalists when it comes to the place of women and homosexuality etc. But he did translate and quote from a letter on usury Calvin wrote.
Calvin did not have to deal with the current fashion of bankers of charging 22% interest rates. However, he did outline the difficulties that the church has:
A couple of days I was arguing with Stewart about divorce. And I wish I had found that quote then. Because if we ban, we have tactical issues (There is a reason Jews became bankers — they were not allowed into guilds or the nobility (landowners), and they could charge interest to gentiles. Which they did).
But there is a slippery slope. What is disproportionate? If the currency is debased, is 21% usury? I can remember mortagages at 17%. Yes, I’ve seen that. Is allowing the currency to debase by 50% over two years, as the pound did recently, moral?
I see the collapse of the current fiat money system, and a move back to sound money.
Finally, the Islamic banking system shows how legalistically creative people get. For instance, If one cannot charge one’s brother interest, is it moral to force him to back a corporation and charge it interest?
Chris
September 7, 2011
Forgot to add link
http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/news/2006/20060205goddard.cfm?doc=84
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Such as?
Are you a distributist?
Why? Lots of stuff regularly, due to price, falls beyond the budget constraints of most people. I can imagine land being worth more for its rental value than sale price if people did not have the ability to afford an out-right purchase.
Where I live they are generally the same houses. Modern houses tend to be smaller. Your example seems to suggest we need to put up with less space, so are you telling us that housing would indeed be less affordable without mortgages?
Is that lower affordability a good thing?
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
I do not see what the quote adds.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
How do we become ‘completely free’?
If they can maintain the anarchy (assuming it can even begin and they can survive it). If not, it will be up to the ‘immorals’ who ‘take over’.
You will do this how?
terri
September 7, 2011
Don’t know what I could add to this as the conversation has been much more stimulating without my ignorant commentary.
I do feel moved to interject my belief that we are at a point in time where men with badges and guns are all that is left. I simply pray that whenever it comes to full bear it does so with the least bit of damage to the general populace and ushers in a third way that gives people the opportunity for maximum self-sufficiency rather than increased state dependency.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
The Queen is Christian.
Alois, Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein, has just come out against abortion.
Relative to the world, and despite much pressure placed upon them in their weakened states, the Christian royal families of Europe have remained Christian. I would not say the same for their parliaments and senates.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“Relative to the world, and despite much pressure placed upon them in their weakened states, the Christian royal families of Europe have remained Christian.”
Very true. However, Stewart, I would not put much faith in the English Crown ever since Prince Beta married that “bint”: http://www.eurocanadiannews.com/2011/royal-couple-end-canada-tour/
Sorry Limeys, sorry Canucks but the Kaiser > the Queen. We need a strong-handed Teutonic badass to reich, not a bunch of prissy, soft Anglos. We need the glory of the First Reich, the greatness of the Second Reich, and the snappy uniforms of the Third Reich!!
The English Crown was great back in the days of King James and King George III.
Cecil Harvey
September 7, 2011
Taxation via land rents, limits to how much land a person could own, allow the state to reclaim unused land and sell it to those who would use it, etc. I know there are more, but I can’t think of any off the top of my head.
I’m not sure. I’m not a laissez faire capitalist any more, or any kind of capitalist in the modern sense. I’m for the outlawing of usury and fractional reserve banking. I’m leaning towards Georgism on taxation. I support protectionalist policy. I wish to see subsidiarity respected.
My biggest problem with distributism is that everyone defines it differently. That’s why I’m hesitant to accept the mantle. I also don’t know how I feel about a guild system.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“My biggest problem with distributism is that everyone defines it differently.”
Well, the only definition that matters is Chesterton’s and Belloc’s definition. Do you agree with their definition of Distributism?
Cecil Harvey
September 7, 2011
Well… there’s two separate things here: houses and land. Land would be more affordable, houses would be less. Houses won’t cost less in terms of labor and material to build, but in a saner system, land prices would be based on the productive value of the land, not boom/bust cycles and artificially inflated purchasing power.
Mortgages are also enslaving, by nature. People extend beyond their means, and then are trapped by their mortgage. That’s why it’s my goal to pay mine off in the next 8-10 years. I want that freedom.
Cecil Harvey
September 7, 2011
I disagree pretty strongly with that. I actually disagree with Chesterton on a number of things. He disliked monarchy, for instance. I’m also unconvinced on guilds. There are a lot of modern distributist thinkers, such as Medaille, and a lot of older thinkers like Fanfani that differed from Chesterton/Belloc in a lot of ways.
Will S.
September 7, 2011
@ Svar: But where is your Kaiser?
You forget, that the British Royal Family, is German, too. Moreover, Britain has beaten Germany twice at its national sport (i.e. war), as a sportscaster has pointed out, heh heh.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“But where is your Kaiser?”
Sleeping in the Kyffhaeuser of course.
“You forget, that the British Royal Family, is German, too.”
Yes, but they have assimilated to the country(not a bad thing-back in the older days). Unfortunately, that photo by ECN shows that they haven’t stopped assimilating.
“Moreover, Britain has beaten Germany twice at its national sport (i.e. war), as a sportscaster has pointed out, heh heh.”
Hahaha, that is true. But, it is shameful the way the Allies treated the German Crown and the German people after WWI.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Yes, but ‘beta’ as he is, he still flies helicopters for the RAF and if he were not heir to the throne he would most likely have fought in Afghanistan alongside his brother. Prince Andrew’s, their uncle, set a good example by fighting in the Falklands war, a role that was secured only by the Queen actively over-ruling the government, which wanted him to remain out of danger. The Royal family, unlike those who start our wars, sends its children to fight for the nation. They are not perfect, but they are worth far more than our government.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“Prince Andrew’s, their uncle, set a good example by fighting in the Falklands war, a role that was secured only by the Queen actively over-ruling the government, which wanted him to remain out of danger.”
Respect. That is very admirable. That is what a King and true leader should be doing: fighting with his men. That’s how they did it back in the olden days.
“The Royal family, unlike those who start our wars, sends its children to fight for the nation. They are not perfect, but they are worth far more than our government.”
Exactly. That warhawk asshole George Dubya Bush, if he had sons, would definitely not send them to fight in his frivolous Iraq War.
“They are not perfect, but they are worth far more than our government.”
Definitely.
Will S.
September 7, 2011
“Hahaha, that is true. But, it is shameful the way the Allies treated the German Crown and the German people after WWI.”
Certainly; the Versailles Treaty was nasty. The Germans deserved better than to be treated as the devil incarnate.
Double E
September 7, 2011
I hear a lot of criticism of bankers for lending. I’m still waiting to hear who put a gun to the heads of those who took out a loan and forced them to do so.
/crickets/
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Quite a few people have pointed out that the credit explosion that easy mortgages provide push up house prices. The existence of such loans changes the rules of the game in such a way that anyone who wants to buy a house, and is not filthy rich, has no choice but to take out such a loan. No, they are not forced at gun point, but they are manipulated by the financial world they live in. Its subtle and easy to miss.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Also, Aaron pointed out: “The burden of sin for usury is on the lender, not the borrower”. That would suggest that theologically we should be focusing on the lenders.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Double E –
I said earlier that usury is definitely a two-party sin. It’s one thing if you are desperate (credit cards definitely work for paying for medical care for your child), but it’s still not a good situation. If you are buying a brand new entertainment set and maxing out a credit card you aren’t going to pay off anytime soon to the detriment of your family then yeah, I’d say you are willfully sinning.
Surely it’s worse to be a predator, but that doesn’t absolve those who are convinced to participate either.
David Alexander
September 7, 2011
the house prices would completely crash down to whatever people could afford to pay for them
That seems to presume that magically, the price of land and materials will go down to compensate and permit me to buy a house cash with a $50K salary. Given that a cheap bathroom renovation costs $6000 with a contractor, there’s no way that we will see $5K homes for average people to afford.
For the left, utopia is a Malthusian place
Really? I thought utopia was some weird combination of Germany, France, and Sweden.
You never hear priests telling people to get their checkbooks in order during a sermon.
My former parish’s pastor has hinted at that during his sermons in order to secure money for the Church and the diocese under the guise of “stewardship”.
Lending, with interest, for consumer purchases, or anything other than genuine investment in production, is usury.
Or it’s simply a decision that one takes in order to purchase something now instead of waiting for the cash to appear.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
My former parish’s pastor has hinted at that during his sermons in order to secure money for the Church and the diocese under the guise of “stewardship”.
Under the guise? Church leaders are generally pretty straightforward when they tell their congregations that they need to be tithing, at least in my experience. Tithes are generally the first line item in the family budget to get the axe when debt is an issue. Hard to tithe when debt is out of control. What’s your point?
David Alexander
September 7, 2011
Church leaders are generally pretty straightforward when they tell their congregations that they need to be tithing, at least in my experience.
In contrast, he would never openly say how much to give or openly call it a tithe, but everybody generally agreed that it was an attempt to get people to give more money to Church to pay for its operating expenses. Most people interpreted the quarterly references to “giving time, talent, and treasure” to be financially motivated, especially since our parish wasn’t lacking in volunteers.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“I thought utopia was some weird combination of Germany”
1st, 2nd, or 3rd Reich?
Btw, that’s an excerpt from PJ Mulvey’s site, I didn’t say that. He is right though, but I don’t understand how the Left is Malthusian. Malthus, even though he was a devout Christian, is basically like the proto-Brett Stevens, who is, by no stretch of the imagination, a liberal.
Malthus was right on many things.
David Alexander
September 7, 2011
1st, 2nd, or 3rd Reich?
The one that didn’t get it’s ass kicked by foreigners invading.
Alte
September 7, 2011
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already (my own thread is now TL;DR for me), but according to Catholic teaching the state is a good that can be corrupted. The state itself, as a concept, is not evil or even a “necessary evil”.
We have Capitalism and we have Socialism.
The book implies that we have capitalism to produce wealth, Keynesianism to stabilize the system, and socialism to distribute the wealth it produces. He says that capitalist societies always develop following a similar pattern (pure capitalism, Keynesianism, socialism, bust) because:
– capitalism is so inherently unstable (creative destruction is dreadful at the person-level) that humans can’t stand it for very long and eventually revolt –> hence, Kenesianism
– capitalism always ends up in decadence (during the boom — which causes societal decay) and then a banana republic (during the bust — high inequality which causes societal meltdown) –> hence, socialism
American capitalism lasted so long because of America’s sheer emptiness and natural wealth. There was always some new spot booming that you could move to. Go West! and all that. There’s still some of that now, and we had technological booms that had a similar effect, but that appears to be winding down now.
Alte
September 7, 2011
If any economic system requires men with badges and guns to enforce it, then it is not a third way.
I don’t think you can begin a moral uprising by immoral means and expect to blessed for it.
Might I point out that capitalism also requires “men with badges and guns” to enforce it? You need those men to distribute property, but also to enforce property rights. We’re not arguing over whether those men will be around and kept busy, but what they will be doing.
Alte
September 7, 2011
but I think dissolution of large lending institutions would be more important than an entire absolution of debt or property redistribution
Distribution inherently favors smaller institutions over larger ones, in the interest of subsidiarity. No more TBTF.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it already (my own thread is now TL;DR for me), but according to Catholic teaching the state is a good that can be corrupted. The state itself, as a concept, is not evil or even a “necessary evil”.
Any linkage/reading on this?
Double E
September 7, 2011
The responsibility is on him who took out the loan. Nobody forced him to.
I live by a simple rule– if I can’t pay for it I don’t buy it. It is not right to fault a lender for the borrower’s lack of self control.
The lenders are not without folly in lending to those without the means to pay. But they will and are suffering losses in doing so. That it is rare that I don’t read about another bank having
been closed by the Treasury / FDIC every weekend attests to this.
CAB
September 7, 2011
I have to admit to a certain amount of “tl;dr” here, which I hate to do, but this thread is just too long for me to catch up on right now. However: based on a cursory reading of the basics of distributism, would it be accurate to say that America was effectively distributist prior to the Industrial Revolution?
Alte
September 7, 2011
Poor stewards get replaced _by the owner_.
No, God has given us judges (the state) to decide if an owner is delinquent. If you build a torture chamber on your property I don’t have to wait for you to die to arrest you and put your property under the stewardship of someone else. If you decide to pour toxic chemicals into your stream, I don’t have to drink the sludge and pray for your funeral to arrive to begin the clean-up operation.
There is the common good, after all.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“would it be accurate to say that America was effectively distributist prior to the Industrial Revolution?”
The entire world was either distributist or feudalist before the Industrial Revolution.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“There is the common good, after all.”
Exactly. Conserving values, faith, cultural heritage, and land all go together.
Alte
September 7, 2011
The Catholic Encyclopedia: The State and Church
And more in the catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
The responsibility is on him who took out the loan. Nobody forced him to.
Sure, but that is not carte blanche to prey on others. Nobody forces a suicidal man to shoot himself, but you sure as hell are sinning if you handed him the loaded pistol knowing full well what he was going to do.
Do we need laws protecting people from themselves? I generally don’t think so, but to equate laws with morality is silly.
Alte
September 7, 2011
It is not right to fault a lender for the borrower’s lack of self control.
But lenders (bankers) are a pillar of all economic systems, which is why they are getting bailed out. I would not mind if everyone just went bankrupt, but that is politically unfeasible, so bailouts will always be attempted. These bailouts need to be taken into account when judging capitalism, as they are inherent to capitalism when administered by humans. Humans don’t like to suffer, so they will promote free markets on the way up, and demand protections on the way down. This is inevitable, which is why modern economists are stupid. They ignore the fact that protections always creep in during the downs, and are rarely jettisoned on the ups. They ignore the fact that economies involve humans and humans don’t suffer in silence.
We must remember that lenders are also usually debtors because of interest. Everyone lends to someone else and attempts to turn a profit by lending (or investing) at a higher rate, with the government (citizens) as lenders of last resort. A giant Ponzi scheme, as they say. This is inherent to a capitalist system because without that Keynesian backstop you cannot make take the biggest risks, and then there is little economic benefit over and above what distributism supplies.
Svar
September 7, 2011
I just saw an advertisement for a (mainstream)movie called “A Good Old Fashioned Orgy”. Say good bye to Western Civilization everyone. It was great when it lasted.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“but to equate laws with morality is silly.”
It’s only silly when the morality behind it the laws is silly.
Svar
September 7, 2011
It’s funny, Alte. Didn’t you used to be a libertarian?
Double E
September 7, 2011
Distributism from the current situation requires men with badges and guns to seize property and give it to others. It would be thievery at best.
Distributism is equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. It would require men with badges and guns to continually seize property. Even after the initial redistribution the productive would gain wealth and the unproductive would lose it.
Pareto’s principle would apply even to distributism
Double E
September 7, 2011
Continuing from last comment—
Pareto’s principle applies even to distributes. 20% of the people would receive 80% of the distributed property.
The idea that men should seize property from another just because he is better armed has no place in Christianity in any form. It arises from envy and jealousy. Thievery is neither just nor right even if supported my majority vote.
Those currently in power live a life of spoils and thievery. We as Christians ought not to emulate them.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Alte – I’ll admit that I only really focused on the “in brief” section of what you linked (although I sped-read through the rest).
Actually, I think I agree with pretty much everything I read, with the exclusion of some terminology. Usually when I refer to the State, I’m talking about any government that exceeds it’s bounds (which is, to my knowledge, all of them). I’ve said that the State is a necessary evil, and while I’m definitely going to reflect on what you posted, I still stand by that statement as of right now.
As I said, I think I agree with everything that’s written – I even said earlier that whatever the form of government is, it is ethically bound to what is essentially minarchy (see 1923 and 1925). Once again, I have not seen any governments that abide by that policy. Voluntarism may not be a requirement, and while I think we are morally bound to submit to all ethical authorities (son to father, wife to husband, etc. etc.), I don’t see where we are in any way supposed to deny that most governments are unethical. Ethical and moral authorities may make incorrect decisions, but never bad ones (otherwise they would not be ethical or moral), and lose their legitimacy when they do.
I’ll readily admit that I’m probably picking out the things I want to hear (in fact, I think anyone could take what you’ve posted and support their argument with it). It’s been a long day so I’ll try to come back to this topic.
One last thing I’d like to bring up is the dependence (addiction is probably a better word) on forceful government. There is absolutely nothing evil about authority. I willingly submit to authority every day of my life. However I think the ethically and morally acceptable bounds of government are way, way lower than most people realize. And I think we need to be very, very wary of unintentionally spreading evil, and governments seem like a prime avenue for doing so.
That comment probably sucks but I just got out of 3 hours of class so I’m fried. Sorry.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
I am neither defending nor attacking distributism here, as I do not understand it, but I would like to know how a legitimate transfer of property can be ‘thievery’. Either you allow for a government to govern property rights or you do not, but once you have whatever legally legitimate transactions take place are just that: legitimate.,,
Are you an anarchist? If not, why do you support the ‘thievery’ involved in taxation?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
““but to equate laws with morality is silly.”
It’s only silly when the morality behind it the laws is silly.”
Haha, true. But even then, humans don’t need a law against every immoral or unethical behavior. We aren’t machines that are to be programmed by the government. God gave us consciences for a reason.
“Say good bye to Western Civilization everyone. It was great when it lasted.”
So sad I lol’d.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
A government collecting taxes for the common good would not count as rendering unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser’s? That has no place in Christianity?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Stewart, can you explain how taxation is not theft? (Pragmatism not allowed, only ideological/moral justifications.) If you don’t pay it, government dogs show up and take it from you at gunpoint.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a satisfying justification for taxation. Granted, that probably has more to do with actually being a borderline anarchist paired with the fact that I have never experienced a just, righteous government.
But if there was, I would obey and would gladly give my money to it. Svar’s Kaiser just hasn’t shown up yet lol.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
What father, husband, etc. has never made a bad decision? If none, are they all illegitimate authorities? Should their son’s and wives stop submitting to them as they have at some point made a bad decision?
Svar
September 7, 2011
“Distributism from the current situation requires men with badges and guns to seize property and give it to others. It would be thievery at best. ”
Once again, you are confusing Distributism with Socialism. Distributism entails the distribution of the ownership of the means of production throughout the general population while Socialism entails the redistribution of capital and places the entire means of production under state control. Capitalism on the other hand, places the ownership of the means of production in the hands of the few. One of these things is not like the other…..
First off, big businesses absorb smaller ones all the time. Is this a good thing for local communities?
Second off, Big Agro has forced the small farmer out of the market. Is this a good thing for local communities?
What you are advocating is as equally unsustainable as Socialism. You seem to think Socialism is unChristian. You are right, but you refuse to see Capitalism as unChristian as well.
Look, we’ve tried out Socialism. It failed. We’ve tried out Capitalism. It failed. Now it is time to explore other options.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Stewart, I want to respectfully suggest that you may be missing the point of Jesus’s reply to the Pharisees.
If His point was that He wanted everyone to pay their taxes without question, he would have just answered “yes.” But he didn’t. Why?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Stewart, I most certainly think you should not submit to people making bad decisions. A bad decision is one that is made when you are not following God’s teaching and will.
Decisions can be good or bad, and correct or incorrect (or a spectrum of correctness). We may not have all the information needed to get the correct answer, but you can still make a GOOD decision based on what you know.
Should a wife continue to support a destructively gambling husband’s habits, even if it is putting the rest of the family in danger? I don’t think so. Should she listen when he’s making the best decision he can about where to send their kids to school? Even if she thinks it’s the incorrect one, I think she should.
Svar
September 7, 2011
“But if there was, I would obey and would gladly give my money to it. Svar’s Kaiser just hasn’t shown up yet lol.”
I feel the same way. The government we live under is illegitimate and crap. I’m willing to obey righteous authority, but this authority.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Also, I just want to point out that Jesus’s “render unto Caesar” comment was used against him, as he was then accused of being a tax dodger.
Clearly, his comments were not in full support of paying taxes when gubment says so.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Hence, rather than continuing the age old, doomed to fail, experiment of coming up with the “best” government; the focus should be on making leaving any given government behind as easy and cost free as possible. That WILL put hard limits on the scumminess of those in charge, something nothing else will do.
In theory, yes. In practice, less so. Again, people are human beings and human beings have emotional connections that are difficult to suffer to their fellow residents (relatives, friends, etc.) and to their land. People aren’t really that mobile, and highly mobile societies tend to quickly disintegrate as families and communities atomize.
Alte
September 7, 2011
and the snappy uniforms of the Third Reich
I’m totally with you on the uniforms. LOL US Marine uniforms are the only ones that really come close to being as cool.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Firstly theft is an illegitimate transfer of property and taxes are legitimate. I am guessing you want more than that.
Your property is defined by a set of rules (we call them laws) that are governed by an institution (we call the government) and within those rules are conditions that some of what comes your way must be delivered to those that govern the system. If you want to deny the legitimacy of the rules enforcing the governments reception of these goods you have to deny the legitimacy of the whole rule set. Thus you have just de-legitimised your entire property holding.
So, taxation is not theft as it is a legitimate transfer of property. If you want to go be an anarchist you can, but as you are then an out-law you must be prepared to defend yourself from those that come along (remember you denied the whole ruleset, that includes the bit about murder). Yes, that includes those governments you have just declared independence from. Good luck.
Are you going for the nothing is Ceaser’s so nothing should be given to him?
None the less, while it used a different verse to get there: Catechism 2240:
I am going to go with the Catholic Church’s biblical interpretation.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Also, if you disagree with the Church that taxes are legitimate: are you an anarchist? Otherwise, why do you condone stealing?
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Or people have been misinterpreting him right from the start.
Certainly, there are many disputed biblical verses today. If a verse is disputed does that mean none of the interpretation put forward are fully supported?
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Weren’t they Hugo Boss?
Svar
September 7, 2011
In the end, what matters is cultural heritage, shared values, and faith. And yes, I am more than willing to have scary men with guns run around to preserve those things that we value. Anything and anyone that is a threat to this should be dealt with. If the Socialist is clamoring for more government control and redistribution of capital. then bring out the dogs and bring out the scary men with guns. If the Capitalist insists on screwing over the farmer, the small businessman, and the worker, then bring out the scary men with guns. If the Social Liberal insists on destroying our culture, our values, our faith and replacing them with multiculti, relativism, and secularism…. by now you probably know the drill. Scary men will always be pointing guns at people. Let’s be realistic. What we need is those scary men pointing guns at other people, not us.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Where I live they are generally the same houses.
Same here, but they generally cost much more now in real terms.
Modern houses tend to be smaller.
In the States, houses have been steadily increasing in size.
Your example seems to suggest we need to put up with less space, so are you telling us that housing would indeed be less affordable without mortgages?
No, but the costs would not be as spread-out as they are. Mortgages don’t make houses cheaper, but they delay payments and raise the impression of affordability.
Is that lower affordability a good thing?
The typical American family spends over a third of its net income on housing, which means that we have a construction-and-mortgage based economy (i.e. a housing bubble). Smaller, cheaper houses would generally be a good thing, yes, because it would free up spending in the rest of the economy and stop us from paving over the entire East Coast to put up McMansions.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Weren’t they Hugo Boss?
Yup.
Svar
September 7, 2011
That Waffen-SS uniform comment reminds me… I retract my endorsement of PJ Mulvey’s site. That guy’s an asshole. He slandered the British Royalty and then said that Britain should abolish Monarchy and Aristocracy. Screw him, he sounds exactly like the Neo-Cons he claims to hate. He is a vehement anti-Monarchist.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Yeah, but if people cannot amortize the cost would they even be able buy in the first place? Is the cost going to fall that far? Is this rent-to-own model viable in housing?
Anyone know the history of housing before mortgages existed?
Alte
September 7, 2011
I also don’t know how I feel about a guild system.
Obviously, as a German, I have a deep affection for guilds.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
How exactly do they work?
Alte
September 7, 2011
Moreover, Britain has beaten Germany twice at its national sport (i.e. war), as a sportscaster has pointed out, heh heh.
Ha. You wish. We were beaten by the Russians the second time.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Oh goodness! Guilds are an own-post topic.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
No doubt, done throughly, an entire series of posts (or a book).
However, can you not give a short sound-bite paragraph? I just have this image of something like a labour union that controls an industry (of I am assuming small independent traders). Is that close?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
If you want to deny the legitimacy of the rules enforcing the governments reception of these goods you have to deny the legitimacy of the whole rule set. Thus you have just de-legitimised your entire property holding.
Going to stop you right there – our rights to life, liberty, and property come from God, not from man. Property isn’t just some invention of mankind. I say borderline anarchist because I think you can aggregate men’s rights to life, liberty and property to form a government, as long as the only thing it does is enforce those rights. To further quote Bastiat – “All these plans as a whole—with their common aim of legal plunder—constitute socialism. But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime.” Now I’ll admit that the quote does not address things such as taxation for common military defense (seems to me you still would not have to forcefully take money to fund this if it is actually doing it’s job, voluntary contracts are a wonderful thing), but so much organized theft gets lumped under the ‘common good’ moniker that I think it applies.
You are going pragmatist with the whole “good luck” comment, btw.
None the less, while it used a different verse to get there:
Lol, they would have to. The verse you quoted doesn’t do anything to support that section of the Catechism.
Regaring that passage – I actually agree with it once again, there is the HUGE assumption that you are promoting the common good by paying taxes/voting/etc. I think it’s pretty easy to argue that you also support abortion culture by doing so.
We are getting way off topic here, but based on your comments I think I could conclude that you think that the entire U.S.A. is a terribly illegitimate institution, seeing as they rebelled because they did not want to submit to the King’s authority to raise taxes, quarter soldiers, etc. Right?
WOW that comment went everywhere. Sorry.
Alte
September 7, 2011
I said earlier that usury is definitely a two-party sin.
Dante considered usurers worse than murderers. http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2009/07/dante-on-usury.html
Usury is a sin of a lender. The debtor’s sin might be greed.
warhawk asshole George Dubya
That’s chickenhawk, to you.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
What we need is those scary men pointing guns at other people, not us.
An entire country’s worth of neo-cons agrees with you.
/trolling Svar to see how he likes it
Alte
September 7, 2011
That’s close, but it’s owners controlling an industry. It’s just that the owners tend to be people who are specialized in the industry (craftsmen), rather than business managers.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Given that a cheap bathroom renovation costs $6000 with a contractor, there’s no way that we will see $5K homes for average people to afford.
You are forgetting about currency reform.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Let me put it this way, Rusty: 1776 is in some way responsible for this cesspool we live in. Freedom of speech? Bullshit. Go look up “Piss Christ”. King George III would have hang, drawn, quartered that little shit who decided to make such a wonderful piece of “art”. Now we congratulate such worthless pieces of trash. And yes, I believe that the U. S. government was illegitimate from it’s inception-on top of that taxes got higher under the new colonial government than under King George III’s rule. Also, the brutal suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion proved that the Founding Traitors didn’t even believed what they preached.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Usury is a sin of a lender. The debtor’s sin might be greed.
You’re right, good call.
Alte
September 7, 2011
It’s funny, Alte. Didn’t you used to be a libertarian?
Yes, but then someone pointed out that all of my “ifs, ands, or buts” added up to distributism. I’m still in the paleo-libertarian camp though.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Rusty, everybody who isn’t a libertarian agrees with my means-Paleocons, Socialists, fascists, American liberals, and American Neo-Cons.
Where we disagree is at the ends. The means are always going to be the same, so in this case it truly is ends-before-means.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Ahhh, looks like Alte is a paleocon who thinks she is a libertarian. Same way how she is an IDer who thinks she is an Evolutionist
Alte
September 7, 2011
Distributism from the current situation requires men with badges and guns to seize property and give it to others. It would be thievery at best.
This presupposes stasis, and no system is immobile. In Argentina, the vultures (kleptocrats) abandoned industry and farms after the collapse, and the workers simply took over the ownership by default. Worker-owned cooperatives became common because there was simply no one else left. Business managers and absentee owners are fickle and won’t stick around to ground out a base income through barter.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
King George III would have hang, drawn, quartered that little shit
Probably deserves it, but I would be happy with not awarding him with the $15,000 of stolen… I mean, legitimately transferred wealth from the National Endowment for the Arts.
Sorry Stewart, I’m still in troll mode. Just picking.
Also, the brutal suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion proved that the Founding Traitors didn’t even believed what they preached.
Yeah that was a real eyebrow-raiser for me when I was taking U.S. History. “Yay American Freedom… wait, they did what now?” Definitely lends some support to my “governments are generally evil” theory…
Alte
September 7, 2011
No, IDers believe that Evolution is simply wrong as a theory. I am definitely not a conservative.
Herbie
September 7, 2011
Rusty,
Taxation is just a consequence of government. Excessive taxation is a consequence of bad government.
I wish I didn’t have to pay any taxes, but human nature being what it is, we all implicitly agree that efficient government has an important place in civilized society….and taxes are the means by which it is run.
One justification for taxation is to sustain a strong military. Besides war making(and ending) capabilities, the U.S. military also gets involved in natural disaster relief around the world. I don’t think anyone would argue with the moral good there – and taxes help make it happen.
Excessive taxation and wasteful spending is what I wince at and they usually go hand in hand.
Alte
September 7, 2011
I’ve said that the State is a necessary evil, and while I’m definitely going to reflect on what you posted, I still stand by that statement as of right now.
The State is a natural institution, so we know that it comes from the Creator and is inherent to His design for human life. It isn’t a mere perversion. Anytime more than two or more humans form a group, they set up a hierarchy, decide upon laws and punishments, etc. This is something inherent to our humanity and we are made in the likeness of God.
It might seem unpleasant to us, but our digestive systems are also unpleasant. They — and many other unpleasant things — are useful and part of the Grand Design. Remember how grossed out you were about sex, as a young child? Ewww… why would anyone do that?
I don’t see where we are in any way supposed to deny that most governments are unethical.
Most people are unethical, and governments are made of people. That is a problem inherent to people, and only incidental to government. Christ, after all, is our King. How can He be a king if government is evil?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Alte –
I will _grudgingly_ accept that the Kingdom of God, ruled by Jesus Christ, is a legitimate government. As long as he doesn’t impose income taxes.
I’m kidding of course, but from here out let’s just assume I’m talking about governments run by non-deities.
Alte
September 7, 2011
But even then, humans don’t need a law against every immoral or unethical behavior.
Catholic teaching is that there is that law (Natural Law), but that most of it is instinctive and written on the hearts of men. It is a sign of our fallen nature that we stray from that law, so that it sometimes has to be written down on paper and enforced by the state for the good of others.
Aristotle wrote about this, as a description of the cycle of government. In anarchy, Natural Law is the only law, and as more and more laws are written you move through republicanism and democracy on to tyranny and then back to anarchy.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
So you do not think taxation is theft?
Then why ask: “Stewart, can you explain how taxation is not theft?”?
Alte
September 7, 2011
I’m kidding of course, but from here out let’s just assume I’m talking about governments run by non-deities.
Well, yes. You’re talking mostly of corrupt government. As we move away from the King, government becomes increasingly corrupt. But that is because of us, not because government in itself is an evil thing.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Catholic teaching is that there is that law (Natural Law), but that most of it is instinctive and written on the hearts of men. It is a sign of our fallen nature that we stray from that law, so that it sometimes has to be written down on paper and enforced by the state for the good of others
So are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Or just commenting on my comment? Because I even said “God gave us consciences for a reason.”
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
“I say borderline anarchist because I think you can aggregate men’s rights to life, liberty and property to form a government, as long as the only thing it does is enforce those rights.
So you do not think taxation is theft?
Then why ask: “Stewart, can you explain how taxation is not theft?”?
I’m confused. Are you saying my idea of legitimate government implies taxation is also acceptable? I don’t believe it is. You can protect your rights voluntarily. A group of men can protect their collective rights voluntarily. Taxation need not apply.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Look, if you believe that government is a natural institution given to us by God, then what would be the natural form of government? I’ll give you a hint-A Deo Rex, A Rege Lex.
Double E
September 7, 2011
The property owners have every right to leave their land fallow and order nonowners off the property
The workers took over ownership without any payment or legitimate transfer. This is thievery. Squatters rights aren’t rights. They are squatters theft.
Your theory is that the rich got rich through stealing. Many did. But having a poor man steal out of some form of economic retribution is repaying evil with evil. It is becoming the monster one criticizes. And it has the added consequence of discouraging the acquisition of wealth by productivity and replaces it with a fight to seize spoils.
In any society like this, the thief beats the honest man and the murderer beats the thief.
The orthodox Christians are masters at this type of society. Almost every orthodox country ended up a hard core communist state.
You can set up a society based on voluntary economic exchange or coercion.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
“But that is because of us, not because government in itself is an evil thing.”
Ok, the Aristotelian form of government may be good. But the ones that are run by humans tend to be unethical.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Yes. The treason and treachery of the American revolution was gravely wrong. I hope all those involved confessed their sins.
Peace, however, was declared and your nation has been recognised by all parties as legitimate and has governed the country in a legitimate fashion. Still, if you wish to return to Crown, I would be most supportive.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Has any government ever been legitimate in your view?
Why has the Church systematically failed to come out and teach this truth so that we can fight these unethical powers? Why has it constantly stressed that for most people it is a moral duty to pay taxes?
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
So the Church is wrong to tell people that “Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:”
Are you opposed to all taxation?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Still, if you wish to return to Crown, I would be most supportive.
Bahaha… talk to Svar. He might take you up on that offer.
Svar
September 7, 2011
Actually, Rusty, I’d decline that offer. The U. K. isn’t looking good(and by that, I mean that it is even more of a shithole than Amerika). We need to start from scratch and build a new kingdom and then go import some Monarch. Either a descendant of the Kaiser or a Hapsburg.
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
I said the Crown, not the United Kingdom. They are not the same.
Alte
September 7, 2011
Because I even said “God gave us consciences for a reason.”
We’re agreeing. Just pointing out the theology behind it, and that there really is a law for everything.
Double E,
We are a nation born of squatters.
And it has the added consequence of discouraging the acquisition of wealth by productivity and replaces it with a fight to seize spoils.
*Alte looks around at the fight to seize spoils that is inherent to capitalism. Scratches head. Goes to bed.*
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
I know, I threw it in for free.
The morality was handled by taxation being a legitimate transaction. The Church agrees and the Catechism I quoted demonstrates that.
Thus I demonstrated that taxation is not inherently immoral as well as explaining why it is prudent to pay them.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
So the Church is wrong to tell people that “Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:”
Are you opposed to all taxation?
Ok, you’re jumping around here. I am too, so it’s fine. BUT what I said was that I don’t think taxation is a necessity of government. Actually the authorities who have the ability to tax generally do the most damage, but authorities without that kind of power, like churches and parents, tend to do lots of good.
And I’m not going to go on the record saying the Catechism is wrong. I do think you missed an important part – that we are supposed to pay taxes, vote, and defend one’s country in order to _promote the greater good_. Very few things about the current U.S. Federal government promote the greater good. I can’t think of too many government institutions with solid track records of doing so (I really, really like interstates though). Whenever I file my taxes, I definitely think “wow, this money is definitely doing more evil than good.” What can I say? I don’t like paying for warmaking, promoting the culture of death, etc.
Am I opposed to all taxation? Short answer – yes. Everyone is, though. Raise taxes high enough, everyone will start dodging them one way or another. Hell, as of right now, I only pay them because I don’t like being thrown in jail.
Longer answer – I wouldn’t be against taxation if we had a righteous, minimalist government. But that’s pie in the sky now, isn’t it?
Svar
September 7, 2011
Stewie, the problem with the English Crown is that it doesn’t have enough power. That is the main reason why UK is in such bad shape. What’s the point of joining the Crown if the Crown has too little power? To become another Canada?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
“the ones that are run by humans tend to be unethical.
Has any government ever been legitimate in your view?”
Not one I’ve ever been a part of. I won’t argue with the ones God specifically ordained in Scripture, though. I will point out – your Crown however probably was a lot less “ordained by God” and a lot more “good at killing people who disagreed with them.” Or do you think God specifically told the Danish Kings of England that it was their time to reign?
Alte
September 7, 2011
Rusty,
We’re supposed to be model citizens until and unless the government is so corrupt that it needs to be overthrown.
http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/we-cant-all-just-get-along/
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Well, clearly that only works if you shift quantifiers.
So, basically in no nation that has ever existed nobody should be paying taxes and the Church has utterly failed to teach this truth?
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Well, hell, grab your guns and let’s do this damn thing! Or have we not hit corruptness factor 5 yet?
Stewart Griffin
September 7, 2011
Your nation would be free to agree any particular relationship with the Crown that it wanted (assuming the Royals agree). If you want the Canadian model you can. If you want something else you can. There is no reason there rule over there has to be the same as there rule anywhere else.
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
So, basically in no nation that has ever existed nobody should be paying taxes and the Church has utterly failed to teach this truth?
You are dead set on trying to get me to say “the Catechism is wrong,” aren’t you?
I don’t know Stewart. I didn’t get to sample all the wonderful flavors of government throughout history. But I sure hope all the good Cambodian Catholics paid their taxes to the Khmer Rouge, just like the Church teaches right?
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except by God’s appointment, and the authorities that exist have been instituted by God. “
Rusty Shackleford
September 7, 2011
Alte – on a more serious note…
Are you saying that we cannot participate in civil resistance? Open civil disobedience? Hidden civil subversion? I’m not talking about blowing up anything, I’m talking about purposely ignoring or breaking laws that are unethical.
I saw where you quoted regarding armed resistance, but not the above options.
Rusty Shackleford
September 8, 2011
Mk, going to bed. I really, really enjoyed this post/comment thread. Thanks, everyone.
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
While you have an extreme opinion about legitimacy I do not take the mirror image extreme view. I can fully accept that some states are not legitimate. What is weird is that you do not seem to be able to accept that any are.
Here is a list of the nations the Holy see has diplomatic relationship with. The USA is one of them.
Further, Its bishops rarely teach that a nations authorities should be undermined. I do not think I am reading the Catechism in a tendentious manner when I say for a great many people in a great many nations paying taxes is a moral duty that the Church affirms.
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
For the socialists and libertarians, Catechism 2425:
Also, Catechism 2436:
Of course, if you believe that almost no government is legitimate you can pretty much ignore this.
Rusty Shackleford
September 8, 2011
I lied, I’m still up.
What is weird is that you do not seem to be able to accept that any are.
Are you serious? I answered your question. I can’t go through history and judge all the governments. I can describe the good ones for you. I can describe the bad ones for you too. Actually, I think I’ve already done that a few times.
I want to get something straight – so if you are a citizen, you are to blindly play along with the system even if you have a serious moral objection to how it operates? When it is obvious that its system has enabled its culture and common morals to dive head first into the latrine? And you are supposed to be a willing legitimizing supporter of all of this by happily forking your money over and giving the politicians who do this a stamp of your approval?
Give me a freaking break.
I even said I pay my taxes, but I won’t for one minute pretend like the U.S. government is doing anything good with them. Is that what you want to hear? That since the Catechism says ‘pay your taxes,’ it means that they are legitimate, good, and make baby Jesus smile? You won’t hear it from me. If it makes you feel any better, I agree with you, the U.S. Federal Government is not legitimate (oh, I forgot, our might made right and now we are legitimate). The Holy See has political relations with it. So what? The Church is to tend to the people. It doesn’t have much incentive to shun any nation.
I can pay my taxes, but that doesn’t stop them from being theft (if you willfully hand over your wallet to a mugger, you still got robbed). Once again, you may not care about how your tax money is spent, but I actually do reflect on it. I do not like them going to fund wars that even the Papacy has condemned, I don’t like them paying for public schools that indoctrinate kids with filth, and I don’t like the fact that I’m literally being stolen from… I’m sorry, my wealth is being legitimately transferred to fund the Boomer’s unsustainable excesses. I believe our government is incredibly shitty, and there is a mythology of economic fallacies and nanny-state dependence surrounding it that prevents most people from seeing how awfully shitty it really is. I’m not too dense to realize that voting is mostly pointless (other than to satisfy the Catechism), that the bifactional ruling party has stacked the deck, and that what most people call “the common good” is a barrow load of horse poop.
I think most governments are unethical mainly because, well, history shows they are. Governments consistently do bad, bad things. I am very, very suspicious of any authority other than God that rules over involuntary subjects. For good reason too – the U.S. government, the one I’ve known my whole life, is a quagmire of destructive policy upon destructive policy (with unGodly politicians) that is about as politely oppressive as it gets. Why do you think the Tea Party (who I do not associate with, btw) has so many pissed off people voluntarily grouping together? I’m obviously not the only person who recognizes that something is horribly, horribly wrong here.
You seem really, really annoyed that I don’t revere my government and pretend that it is holy. You may treat your politics religiously, but I don’t. You also seem to think that we should sit around powerless and opinionless about our governments while saying that the authorities were put their by God so we shouldn’t ever fight them. Actually, I really don’t even get what you are aiming at in this discussion anymore. I seriously think you are just trying to get me to deny the Catechism, but that’s a really stupid game of “gotcha,” especially when you ignore my specific response earlier.
However. I’m sure the High Priests, Herod, and Pilate really appreciate your support. Yeeshe.
Rusty Shackleford
September 8, 2011
“Also, Catechism 2436:
It is unjust not to pay the social security contributions required by legitimate authority.
Unemployment almost always wounds its victim’s dignity and threatens the equilibrium of his life. Besides the harm done to him personally, it entails many risks for his family.
Of course, if you believe that almost no government is legitimate you can pretty much ignore this.”
Government does a pretty shitty job at social security, and I don’t think its against Church teaching to promote the idea that our social responsibilities to our bretheren should not be usurped by faceless bureaucrats. It isn’t against Church teaching to recognize how poisonous government dependency can be to the souls those receiving pilfered benefits, but also how evil the disincentive of the government provided safety net really is to the producers who should be providing active, not government-organized passive relief to his brothers.
Of course, if you are a coddled nanny-stater who believes that we are powerless without our gun-toting government, you can pretty much ignore this.
Chris
September 8, 2011
Rusty: Well, in this situation I pity to poor guys who are in the Magesterium. They cannot keep up. The world is becoming more and more chaotic.
I do not see the current “big bank” situation as sustainable. I do not see “big government as sustainable. And small banks, sounder money, and a lack of a social welfare system has been the state of much of the modern era. I think we are going back to that
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
Then you should campaign against it. As Catecism 2442 says:
I agree. Again, see Catechism 2442.
Agreed again. I generally am very open to the idea that alms should be provided by charity rather than government.
That is true.
I quoted catechism 2436 as yet more proof that, pace extreme libertarian rhetoric, taxation is not in and of itself morally wrong and that non-voluntary payment of money to social funds is something the Church believes is within the authority of governments – certainly, in this case, for social security systems. Further, this shows that the Church has no problem recognising the legitimacy of governments that do more than a minarchy would do.
Still, that I oppose your view that a mandatory social security scheme is intrinsically illegitimate does not mean I have to take the position that it is wrong for such a system not to exist or that they are necessarily good when they do. I just recognise they are a legitimate, even if distasteful to myself, option for governments to take and not a reason to stop paying taxes.
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
My previous comment argued, with support from Catechism 2436 and in sympathy with Catechism 2425, that governments that do more than a minarchy can be entirely legitimate and that paying taxes to them is therefore, as catechism 2240 (see my earlier comment) teaches, a moral duty.
Therefore if this statement:
is supposed to suggest that only a minarchist regime may collect taxes then I disagree. Obviously, someone can still campaign against taxes of non-minarchist regimes, but they would have to accept they are not morally wrong (simply on the basis of the government doing more than a minarchist regime).
Do you disagree that governments that do more than a minarchist state can collect taxes that we have a moral duty to pay?
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
Sorry, just realised that you said ‘minimalist government’ not ‘minarchist government’. Are you able to define what a ‘minimalist government’ is? Is it different to a minarchy?
Chris
September 8, 2011
Hi Stewart.
:Let’s consider what are the true roles of the State. The Crown if you will: I’d suggest there are about three things the Crown has to do.
1. Preserve the peace. Both externally and internally.
2. Dispense Justice. A minimal number of just laws, justly enforced
3. Provide sufficient liberty to the subjects of the crown that they may proceed to build lives, businesses etc. (I don’t no what to call this — basically if it is not forbidden, it is allowed)
This is a fairly minimal model — based mainly on Hong Kong. In NZ, I argue for armed neutrality, a small capital, minimal regulation, the devolution of education, health and all social interventions to local communities (And social provision being devolved to the unions or guilds, the church, and such voluntary groups that people choose to make — from Rotary to the Elks).
I’d also legalise all substances of abuse, and tighten up on the divorce laws (or remove them entirely , as marriage is an issue for the church and not the crown).
These ideas have two problems (1) you would never get elected in NZ with that platform as about half the population are beneficiaries and (2) we would be inundated with Californian potheads (smoking up all the bad stuff, and demanding we listen to them . Well, a boy can dream.
Alte
September 8, 2011
Are you saying that we cannot participate in civil resistance? Open civil disobedience? Hidden civil subversion? I’m not talking about blowing up anything, I’m talking about purposely ignoring or breaking laws that are unethical.
Civil disobedience is allowed in some cases, and those are outlined in the catechism.
Taxation and other normal functions of government are not unjust. Only anarchists believe that and Catholics cannot be anarchists.
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
Chris, that is about how I would imagine a ‘minimal government’.
I will point out that Hong Kong has always had large amounts of social housing. I think something like half of the citizens there get low cost accommodation from the state.
Alte
September 8, 2011
I just recognise they are a legitimate, even if distasteful to myself, option for governments to take and not a reason to stop paying taxes.
This being the point. We’re supposed to agitate politically for changes to governmental rules that we find onerous or unfair, not refuse to respect laws just because we don’t like them. I don’t like most of the laws here, including the tax laws, but that isn’t reason enough to not pay taxes.
There may come a time for that, and maybe soon, but not yet. Remember that our main goal is to get as many people to Heaven as possible, not to create a Utopia here on earth. It is only if the government’s interference is preventing our goal, or infringing greatly upon human dignity and life, that we should act against it. And we’re supposed to exhaust all legal and political channels before we even try something else.
The Church sets the bar so high because of the “law of unintended consequences”.
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
That’s very naughty. Lying is a sin. Thomas Aquinas says so.
Indeed, which is why I did not re-asked it.
My understanding of your position on legitimacy is that some kind of quasi-state based on voluntary association* would be legitimate and so would a ‘righteous, minimalist government’. The latter you describe as ‘pie in the sky’ and I am assuming that you agree the former is only more so. As the theoretical legitimate governments are ‘pie in the sky’ and you are unable to provide, so far, any historical example I do not think suggesting you weirdly ‘do not seem to be able to accept any are [legitimate]‘ is an unfair comment. Perhaps it would be fairer to say: “you weirdly do not seem to be able to accept as legitimate any government you know to have existed and further stipulate legitimacy so unusually that it is almost impossible you ever will”.
‘seem’, in the comment you quote, is important** as you have expressed that certain, highly restricted (to the point of being pretty much being pipe dreams) governments could in theory be legitimate, while not accepting that any real ones – even any likely future ones actually are, were or will be. Perhaps this is why you have given yourself the weird title of ‘borderline anarchist: your not in theory an anarchist, but – for practical purposes – you are.
* From one of your earlier comments: “Are you saying my idea of legitimate government implies taxation is also acceptable? I don’t believe it is. You can protect your rights voluntarily. A group of men can protect their collective rights voluntarily”
** perhaps I left to much implied by this word
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
Again, see Catechism 2442 referenced above.
As an interesting side note: it did refuse to give de jure recognition to Israel until 1993.
A wild assumption about my position. Understanding that something is not theft is not the same as thinking it is optimum.
I do not care about your feelings towards your government.
I do not know what you are even suggesting here.
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
The debate is from your question: “Stewart, can you explain how taxation is not theft?”
I believe the Catechism shows that they are not equivalent. You are trying to work around this by claiming that no real world authority you know of has ever made the grade as ‘legitimate’ and, considering your standards, we are unlikely, save angels taking over, to ever have one.
I deny that a minarchist or voluntary government is the only one that is legitimate. Again, I believe the Catechism and indeed the long history of Church teaching agree with my stance.
I am not denying that low taxes or small amounts of government interference in one’s life is best.
the cottage child
September 8, 2011
Civil disobedience is allowed in some cases
It’s important to be prepared to accept the consequences. The problem with cd is it’s rife with DHMIAG types – I’m a mommy, I need to get home to my kids isn’t a legitimate reason for being let off easy, yet it’s the default complaint if anyone is actually arrested. If your husband or wife is on board with bailing you out of jail, and you want to stage a protest by way of cd, go for it, but the reason it’s not taken seriously anymore is because no one is willing to take the ride, due the list of exceptional exceptions.
Stadt-Land-Fluss
September 8, 2011
“Moreover, Britain has beaten Germany twice at its national sport (i.e. war), as a sportscaster has pointed out, heh heh”
No .Britain was a more warlike nation than Germany, so it looks like that war is the national sport of the Island Monkeys(I try to find an old english newspaper article, which critcises Prussia for not being warlike enough)
And in the World Wars, we were defeated by Russians and/or Americans, not Limeys(Always needing help from Big Brother).
“and the snappy uniforms of the Third Reich
I’m totally with you on the uniforms. LOL US Marine uniforms are the only ones that really come close to being as cool.”
Perhaps we should have dissolved the Bundeswehr and kept the NVA.
Svar
September 8, 2011
Civil disobedience is still disobedience. DHMIAG….. pfftt… Bring out the Hollenhunds!!
Stewart Griffin
September 8, 2011
What is DHMIAG?
Alte
September 8, 2011
Don’t hit me, I’m a girl.
Alte
September 8, 2011
The problem with cd is it’s rife with DHMIAG types
Girl power! I can do anything a man can do, unless it’s sucks. Like when I’ve seen pictures of female protestors marching valiantly against state oppression. Then they bring out the water canons and rubber bullets and the chicks all run to hide behind the men. LOL Stay home and make sandwiches like a good girl, or take it like a man.
Don’t be like OMG, I didn’t really mean it! I was just faking. Please let me go home *bursts into tears* DHMIAG! *Sad Bambi eyes* *sniffle, sniffle* What about the children?
Uh… you should have thought of that before you started marching, chickie.
Svar
September 8, 2011
“Like when I’ve seen pictures of female protestors marching valiantly against state oppression.”
Slutwalks?
Svar
September 8, 2011
“Then they bring out the water canons and rubber bullets and the chicks all run to hide behind the men.”
I always Arr Oh Eff Ell Aey Em Oh when they bring out the dogs. Just imagine kennel after kennel of German Shepherds chasing annoying protesters hahah.
I love German Shepherds.
Cecil Harvey
September 8, 2011
I’m more or less in the same camp as well. Distributists are much closer to libertarian ideals than neo-cons. They also espouse smaller government, primarily at the central levels. The more local, the more government. The most local is the family, and the family, by and large, governs itself.
Alte
September 8, 2011
CC called it “moral libertarianism”, but libertarianism is inherently amoral and concerns itself primarily with what is legal, not with what is ethically correct. Once you wish to design a system to promote the common good and lasting prosperity, you move into distributism and related systems.
KingofthePaupers
September 9, 2011
“107. This concentration of power and might, the characteristic mark, as it were, of contemporary economic life, is the fruit that the unlimited freedom of struggle among competitors has of its own nature produced, and which lets only the strongest survive; and this is often the same as saying, those who fight the most violently, those who give least heed to their conscience.”
Jct: Yes, only those who fight most violently survive their mort-gage death-gamble where all borrowed P and all owed P+I and at the end of the game of musical chairs with not enough money, the losers get foreclosed resulting in the same money chasing less collateral, Shift B, untaught in Economics so you stay ignorant. Search for “Big Lie of Economics”
My solution was to start my own online Person-to-Person UNILETS timebank account. In 1999, I paid for 39/40 nights in Europe with an IOU for a night back in Canada worth 5 Hours. U.N. Millennium Declaration UNILETS Resolution C6 to governments is for a time-based currency to restructure the global financial architecture and I’m not waiting. See my account at http://facebook.com/john.turmel?sk=info
the cottage child
September 10, 2011
CC called it “moral libertarianism”
I’m parsing here because the difference is distinct – the term I used was moral capitalism – which requires a consensus of morality due to the notion of equal exchange. I’m interested in the micro-capitalism aspect, where market pressure is essentially social pressure to perform quality work or deliver superior goods in exchange for a legitimate price – it’s ultimately self-regulating. My advocacy would be for the dissolution of the mega-banks, mega-farms, and mega-education, so all of those industries can revert back to local production and pressure for accountability.
Alte
September 10, 2011
Capitalism, like libertarianism, is inherently amoral. If you are advocating for subsidiarity in economics then you are not a capitalist, as capitalism unchecked leads inevitably to the concentration of wealth. Even the concept of breaking up monopolies is an anti-capitalist stance.
The goal of distributism is to leave the wealth distributed. Not for reasons of “fairness”, but to promote long-term competition. Raw capitalism has fierce competition for a short time and then quickly forms an entrenched meritocracy.
the cottage child
September 10, 2011
The goal of distributism is to leave the wealth distributed.
I appreciate that. The Chesterton quote always helps, too.
I guess I’d hope for something in the middle – I don’t like that either system essentially has no mechanism for accountability due to selective regulation and special protections based on scale. I mean, there’s a difference between Costco and Bank of America on the service (maybe that’s what I mean by morality) scale. I think if you screw enough people enough times you should be put out of business, period. Using the BOA example, the market can’t effectively correct the problem due to hyper-regulation that is anti-consumer, so an expectation of being ripped off and treated like crap is the new normal (morality, again). On the other end, I don’t see how over-regulation that favors smaller entities is any more “pure” as it would be just as likely that those businesses would demand subsidy based on something other than quality if the competition isn’t rigorous. I’m not arguing, I’m entirely unqualified as it’s all new to me, just trying to understand the pitfalls of both.
Double E
September 10, 2011
Distributism requires men with badges and guns to seize the concentrated wealth and give it to others.
If I ask a distributist whether he thinks it is OK if I point a gun at him, order him to fork it over, then I distribute it according to my feelings, he will say that is wrong. But he does want OTHER people’s wealth distributed– not his own.
It is socialism and authoritarianism with a Christian veneer. It is rampant hypocrisy. It is theft by majority vote.
There is no evil in concentrated wealth. There is much evil in seizing wealth by force.
Svar
September 10, 2011
@ Alte and CC
Yep, Big Banks, Big Agro, Big Business, and Modern Education are problems that can be solved via localization.
@ Double E
Yes, authoritarianism is unChristian, whatever. A Deo Rex, A Rege Lex.
Also, once again distributism is 3rd Way not socialism. If you were to look up the definition of socialism and distributism you would see that they are two different things.
I don’t see why you sympathize more with Plutocrats than local communities.
Also, what’s wrong with pointing guns at people? Who was that guy who said “I come bearing a sword” again?
Svar
September 10, 2011
CC, what we need is more strict regulation of large businesses and extremely loose regulation of small businesses. One law for the ox and the lion is tyranny.
Alte
September 10, 2011
But he does want OTHER people’s wealth distributed– not his own.
I don’t think you really get the point of distributism. It’s not about the distribution of monetary capital, but of the means to surplus.
Alte
September 10, 2011
This reminds me of the following: http://www.economist.com/node/21525851
Alte
September 10, 2011
And since when did Christians get so concerned with keeping their wealth? Isn’t that sort of the opposite of what we’re supposed to be like? I’m fully aware of the fact that I’d probably lose wealth in a distributed system, and… You know what? I don’t care! Why in the world should I care? Do you think I sit at home worshiping my money? Hello.
I care if my money is taken for frivolous or destructive reasons, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about reorganizing economic systems for the betterment of our community. Nobody is a self-made man. Nobody. Everybody who has wealth now has it because someone else gave it to them or set up a system in which they could prosper. So… let’s pay some of it back for our children’s sake. Geez.
Double E
September 10, 2011
Alte I agree with giving back. But not at gunpoint. That isnt giving it is theftThe money isn’t my concern– I can always earn more money. The gun pointed at my head is the concern.
The other question is who gets to be the arbiter of a better cause for wealth. South Africa has a distributist economy. The black economic empowerment laws are the cause. The arbiters have decided that giving wealth according to skin color is a better use for the wealth. And they are in shambles.
Double E
September 10, 2011
One of the early American colonies tried a distributist economy. They decreed that profits were illegal and any excess money earned must be given to the colony at large. This resulted in the farmers quitting working and starvation until profits (read property rights) were allowed again.
Alte
September 10, 2011
You clearly don’t understand distributism if you’re comparing it to communism.
The gun pointed at my head is the concern.
That’s what government is. It’s political action backed up by men with guns. We are talking about exchanging one form of economic system for another. That is all. You act like your option doesn’t involve men with guns.
Svar
September 10, 2011
Alte, redistribution of wealth is socialism.
Double E, South Africa is a socialist now, not distributist. Stop conflating socialism and distributism.
Once again, what has the plutocrat done for you? Jersey Shore, Glee? Promotion of liberal values? They don’t care about you, they don’t care about your community, and they don’t care about your Church. They are in fact, hand-in-hand with the social liberals trying to undermine your values and what you stand for.
Svar
September 10, 2011
“You clearly don’t understand distributism if you’re comparing it to communism.”
Exactly, this is a clear case of “an enemy of my enemy is my friend” thinking. Look how that worked out for Von Kahr(may his soul rest in peace. He was a great man, the martyr of the Beer Hall Putsch).
Alte
September 10, 2011
Alte, redistribution of wealth is socialism.
The redistribution would have to happen at some point, or you would just have a continuation of the current system. It’s only socialism if the redistribution is a constant regular feature of the new system. Not if it is done once, at the very beginning. Currency reform is not socialism.
Alte
September 10, 2011
The basis of the Wirtschaftswunder was the DM, and this is how it was implemented:
David Alexander
September 10, 2011
The basis of the Wirtschaftswunder was the DM
So in other words it was a subsidy to workers and landlords, with creditors being told to suck it. Of course, it’s easy to implement said reforms when the Americans have a gun to your head and while partially bankrolling your economic reconstruction, and nobody else has the money to effectively pay in the first place if they’re alive and not starving.
Clarence
September 10, 2011
Heck, why not try distributionism?
For large groups of people, something is always going to have to be imposed on them from somewhere, and distributionism seems better than most economic systems. I might tweak it to allow a very limited form of a corporation (because there are societal benefits for the ability to do large projects) but otherwise, I rather like what I’ve read about it.
Anyway, all economics is the psychology of trading, and thus there can be many systems. The “best” one is the one that most comports with our human nature and needs, so it makes sense to experiment and mix and match, and we do have SOME experience of various types of economies from nearly purely planned to nearly anarchistic.
Alte
September 10, 2011
The DM flattened the economic hierarchy in Germany, which led to the promotion of small and medium-sized businesses (Mittelstand), which were the basis of the economic recovery.
Svar
September 10, 2011
“The redistribution would have to happen at some point, or you would just have a continuation of the current system. It’s only socialism if the redistribution is a constant regular feature of the new system. Not if it is done once, at the very beginning. Currency reform is not socialism.”
True, but socialism is the redistribution of capital; distributism is the distribution of the ownership of the means of production throughout the general population. For example, take Big Agro. If the government were to seize Big Agro, break it up and sell it to small farmers in order to ease up the pressure on existing small farmers and in order to create new ones, that would be distributism. If the government were to seize Big Agro, keep it under it’s control and pay the farmers a government wage, that would be socialism.
That turned out into being more of a response to Double E, than you. I guess I just hate the term “redistribution”.
Svar
September 10, 2011
“I might tweak it to allow a very limited form of a corporation (because there are societal benefits for the ability to do large projects) but otherwise, I rather like what I’ve read about it.”
I believe in a mixed 3rd Way economy, combining distributism on the local and regional level with National Syndicalism/Corparativism on the national level.
Alte
September 10, 2011
DA,
Many of the Americans were actually against many of the reforms, and they were initially preventing economic reconstruction and dismantling the industrial sector. The Marshall Plan did not take effect until after currency reform.
Stewart Griffin
September 10, 2011
Wikipedia:
Stewart Griffin
September 10, 2011
How do the owners stop other people, working outside the guild, from moving into the industry? Is it as with the Bar association where they simply use enforcement by the state?
Alte
September 10, 2011
distributism is the distribution of the ownership of the means of production throughout the general population
But that distribution is meaningless if the majority of your currency is held by the top 10% of the population. Who will buy any of the produce if most people don’t have any money, and those who do live in fear of the ravages of inflation?
Should we be reduced to bartering with chickens? If you do not have currency reform you will end up with local and/or black market currencies, which would cripple honest industry. But — yes, it’s true — an effective currency reform would flatten the economic hierarchy in regards to liquid assets. That’s the whole point!
Alte
September 10, 2011
Is it as with the Bar association where they simply use enforcement by the state?
Yes, the guilds have a monopoly. It doesn’t work otherwise.
Stewart Griffin
September 10, 2011
What are the advantages to having industries that are controlled by guilds?
Alte
September 10, 2011
The guilds train their workers (apprenticeships), which prevents people from having to be trained at colleges and raises the value of the majority of workers. The majority of workers earn a living wage, which encourages homemaking (hence Germany’s high homemaking rates) and discourages divorce and illegitimacy. The middle class is the overwhelming majority of the population and economic inequality is very low (which lowers violence and crime).
Stewart Griffin
September 10, 2011
I take it that a lot of the good stuff: living wage, training, etcetera, must be provided for them to maintain their monopoly? So, they get monopoly with regulation. Do you have actual examples of this in modern Germany?
Alte
September 10, 2011
And, of course, you have the benefit that skilled tradesmen aren’t crazy expensive. My kingdom for a competent plumber or arborist who doesn’t charge me $200/hour. In Germany, we could afford to hire professionals for most jobs, whilst my husband has to do everything himself here.
Stewart Griffin
September 10, 2011
Is plumbing and arboriculture controlled by government protected guilds in Germany?
Alte
September 10, 2011
You don’t understand, Stewart. The majority of the economy is run in a guild-like fashion. The butchers, the bakers, and the candlestick makers.
More in a future thread, though, as this one is now TL;DR and needs to be closed.