Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
1 Corinthians 5: 6-8
(Audience participation here)
What heresies have you come upon in your daily life in your walk with God? What artifacts of apostasy and idolatry have you seen? Any experiences in your immediate family? Anything that you have seen on television?
Posted in: Religion
terri
October 11, 2011
There are probably more than most people who are paying attention can count, Alcest. A few of the big ones:
1) The health and wealth gospel
2) The rejection of traditional marriage and the Bible’s teaching on divorce. Hard stuff there.
3) Me personally? Let me think on it.
cinarnation
October 11, 2011
Pastors who will lie if the agenda is important enough. For example, telling the men in the church that a men’s meeting is to eat steak and get to know one another, then at the meeting there are special speakers present to try to shame the men into “acting ilke men.” Or setting up a prayer tent in a public park that advertises its only purpose is to offer prayer for anybody passing by, but if a person stops to ask for prayer they get the full-on “Jesus will make you feel better if you only say this prayer.” I think pastoral lying for the “good of the Kingdom” happens a lot.
7man
October 11, 2011
1) Iconoclasm (shunning the symbolic and only embracing feelings)
2) Belief in a “Democracy of God” (power to the people) rather than the “Kingdom of God” (hierarchy)
3) Denial that a person consists of the body and the spirit and this combination was made in the image and likeness of God.
alcestiseshtemoa
October 11, 2011
Thanks all. Interesting points made by everyone here.
laceagate
October 11, 2011
Open Theism, Christo-feminism and syncretism. ‘nough said.
Svar
October 11, 2011
I second Lisa on Christo-feminism. There are Christian women who do not believe in female submission(but definitely in male sacrifice) and some who believe in female ordination.
alcestiseshtemoa
October 11, 2011
One heresy I’ve noticed present in the modern Church is excessive “forgiveness” which leads to tolerance and acceptance of evil. There are many others as well.
laceagate
October 11, 2011
I second Lisa on Christo-feminism.
LOL. Doofus, it’s laceagate now!
Alcest, it has been my observation that forgiveness isn’t properly applied, than excessive. Forgiveness has become an overused word used in contexts which really don’t pertain, versus being understood as a true Christian concept. For instance, I’ve seen many people think forgiveness=trust, and that’s simply not true.
Bird on a wing
October 11, 2011
Nevermind him, he’s just bein’ Sauerkraut “Milkshakes” Svar!
terri
October 11, 2011
The sinner’s prayer as concrete evidence of salvation.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
Health and wealth…. you didn’t get healed because you didn’t have enough faith, etc, etc.
Divorce/annullment and remarriage… nuf ced
All relationship problems are the fault of the man. (Implicit assumption of every sermon and nearly every “Christian” book on the subject. They’ve totally drunk the world’s koolaid on this point).
The biblically disproven pre-trib rapture. Rapture is at the end, sorry folks, prepare for rough times.
“Once saved always saved”….. biblically speaking: NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don’t get me started on the translation/interpretation errors that “force” people to take a 6 x 24 hr day creation week, 6000 years ago, as de fide Evangelical dogma — despite mountains of uncontroverted science to the contrary. Ugh.
Coming soon to a church near you: legitimization of homosexuality. I see the resistance to this slowly weakening. That’s the day we walk out, taking our kids and our tithe money with us.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
forgot one… if you don’t speak in tongues, you don’t really have the Holy Spirit. Related: let’s all speak in tongues together in public without interpretation despite the fact that Scripture forbids this!!!!!
(Disclaimer: I myself HAVE HAD that experience a number of times, and once was graced with the interpretation of it. Yet, the Bible is clear that NOT everyone gets every gift, and that prophecy, not tongues, is the one to covet if you covet any of them)>
A Lady
October 11, 2011
Oh, many churches are given to this one– treating female sexual sin as a passive situation where the woman was always sinned against. There’s a whole mythology. Basically all women who have sexual sin, particularly (but not exclusively) the suite of sexual sins involving selling sex, were ‘abused as children’ and if only that hadn’t happened, they would not have committed those sexual sins. The extreme version of this argues that such women are still children, and in fact more innocent and sin-free than other women because they were sinned against and didn’t choose to sin.
There is of course a gay variation, in which gay men are feminized in order to get to the same result– that ‘abuse as a child’ kept them childlike and this is why they’re gay.
For gay women, though, the whole worldly view that ‘lesbians are sorta dudes, kinda’ sometimes leads to them being strongly discouraged away from church entirely, as if they were heretical men.
Also, gossip not being dealt with as a major, crippling sin.
laceagate
October 11, 2011
I personally find the whole “we must speak Christianese” quite annoying and borderline blasphemy, as if one who does not speak that way is not a true Christian.
cinarnation
October 11, 2011
Everybody has to decide on what the Bible means all on their own and the interpretation of it is intensely personal and intimate and nobody can question it. Traditional interpretation is always wrong.
Jesus is my boyfriend songs.
God doesn’t want anybody to suffer. Jesus died to alleviate human suffering. Alternatively, good Christians don’t experience suffering when they’re suffering. They claim the promises of God instead and happily go through the dark night.
And yes! Girl lust (doing everything possible to make men want me) happens because the girls are damaged by being unloved by their fathers. Boy lust happens because boys are sinful.
Chris
October 11, 2011
Good list… I would add begging forgiveness for historical wrongs. Sometimes they were not wrong per se: but we are not responsible for our fathers sins. We have enough of our own.
And we all missed “Christianity is nice”. Ned Flanders may be good, but he is annoying…
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
all women who have sexual sin, particularly (but not exclusively) the suite of sexual sins involving selling sex, were ‘abused as children’ and if only that hadn’t happened, they would not have committed those sexual sins
In fairness, that’s often true. Every highly promiscuous or formerly promiscuous woman whose life story I know, got her start from being raped as a teen or molested even younger than that. Some of these victims originally intended to stay virgins til marriage but after the rape, in their emotional devastation they just said, “to hell with it” and started slutting around. This does NOT make it right. But it does mean that somewhere, some guy acted as a very serious stumbling block, making the girl’s path into sin much easier.
Selling it?.. I only know one. I met her in Bible study. She was an exprostitute (n >400 per her, and that’s only counting the males) and recovering meth addict. On our first date, somewhere around 2 AM she collapsed in my arms sobbing… “My father is a pedophile…”, and the lifestory was all downhill from there. We’re talking abusive boyriends, living on the street, prostitution, rape, drugs, horrors… Our relationship lasted about 2 months; she was just too damaged. Years later, when she called me to apologize for what she put me through, she admitted that she was still backsliding into meth at the time we were dating…. which explained a lot of her crazy inexplicable rages.
It is totally her responsibility to change what she is, but it is NOT her fault that she BECAME what she is. And last time I heard from her, she was indeed making serious changes.
laceagate
October 11, 2011
Traditional interpretation is always wrong.
Yup, and don’t forget even the traditional interpreters have their own interpretation, which of course, MUST be wrong since anyone can interpret it the way they see fit!
There IS no traditional and true interpretation. I mean at this rate, if I decide that el gato doesn’t truly interpret to mean cat, then perhaps it must mean dog, too??
laceagate
October 11, 2011
Bah, messed up with the formatting again!
Svar
October 11, 2011
“LOL. Doofus, it’s laceagate now!”
Lacea, may I kindly and humbly ask you to refrain from using such hurtful and crass language? You hurt my fucking heart.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
Jesus is my boyfriend songs.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! BLEECH! vomiting in cubicle…
Svar
October 11, 2011
“Everybody has to decide on what the Bible means all on their own and the interpretation of it is intensely personal and intimate and nobody can question it. Traditional interpretation is always wrong. ”
This is why the Roman Catholic Church, the EOC, and SSPX are so great. What you think doesn’t matter. Like it should be.
terri
October 11, 2011
Lacey,
I tried to fix it. Does it look like you meant it to, now?
By the way, I like Chris’ comment too. I wonder why “love your neighbor” has been interpreted as “be nice and walk around with a grin singing the Hallelujah chorus” all. the. time.
And can I add this one: that any calling out of a thing as sin is “judging, and Jesus said not to do that!”
Svar
October 11, 2011
“Jesus is my boyfriend songs. ”
Jesus is my Thor. That’s why I sacrifice horses to him and bang loads of girls in His ehre. Is that heretical or blasphemous?
terri
October 11, 2011
Is that heretical or blasphemous?
Both. And I’m serious. Some jokes really are not alright, Svar.
If I’m just being super sensitive, I trust another learned believer will correct me on that.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
heresy #1: “Jesus is my boyfriend songs.
heresy #2: “Jesus is my Thor. That’s why I sacrifice horses to him and bang loads of girls in His ehre. Is that heretical or blasphemous?”
Heresy #2 is a much closer approach to the truth. A pagan who understands both sacrifice and hedonism — and the connection between the two — is in a much better position to appreciate the fullness of truth, than someone who has the real deal and romanticizes it into meaninglessness.
Deuteronomy 14:22-26
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose:
And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,
Ya won’t hear that one on Sunday morning…
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
That book of Deuteronomy passage reminded me of something far sillier…
ARTHUR: Consult the Book of Armaments.
BROTHER MAYNARD: Armaments Chapter Two Verses Nine to Twenty One.
ANOTHER MONK (reading from bible): And St. Attila raised his hand grenade up on high saying “O Lord bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy. ” And the Lord did grin and people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orang-utans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and…
BROTHER MAYNARD: Skip a bit brother …
ANOTHER MONK: … Er … oh, yes … and the Lord spake, saying, “First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin, then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.
http://mzonline.com/bin/view/Python/HolyGrailScene31/
Modern heresies and blasphemies, indeed….
Phil
October 11, 2011
A modern heresy is Christian Zionism.
laceagate
October 11, 2011
Yes Terri, thank you.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
Of course Svar is heretical. But I try to meet him where he is. There is still good in him; I can feel it.
Perhaps we should call him, Svarth Vader? LOL
A Lady
October 11, 2011
van rooinek, lots of people who are sexually abused don’t end up committing sexual sin in the sense of promiscuity or sexwork. and as well, a lot of women claim a history of abuse precisely because it fits the narrative about female sexual sin. certainly many women are sinned against and act it out in what have become stereotypical ways, but there is a sizable pool of women claiming what will fit the narrative to excuse their choices.
which brings me to another modern heresy/blasphemy– the false testimony. tons of people make up elaborate testimonies full of crime, drug use and sexual sin to make themselves look impressive (in their minds, it is somehow more impressive to have lived a life of obvious sin and converted, so why not lie about it, apparently).
i have noticed in churches full of recent/young converts, there is often a weird pressure to not have a ‘boring’ testimony like growing up with two married Christian parents and continuing in the faith or being a preacher’s kid who didn’t get into trouble. so people claim a drinking problem in college, or a year of ‘crazy living’, or ‘flirted with drugs’, etc. which, um, calls into question the depth of the salvation.
joanna
October 11, 2011
I like Darth Svar better.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
there is a sizable pool of women claiming what will fit the narrative to excuse their choices….which brings me to another modern heresy/blasphemy– the false testimony. tons of people make up elaborate testimonies full of crime, drug use and sexual sin to make themselves look impressive
Yes, it’s called a “bragimony” in evangelical circles. If they sound proud, either they are embellishing and/or at some level they haven’t really repented. Or they’re trying to play the “badboy” card for the girls.
laceagate
October 11, 2011
Indeed Van Rooinek. In addition to the “bragimony,” the same people then look down their noses to the people who genuinely have NOT done anything to produce testimony citing that they wouldn’t know what it’s like to face temptation and sin.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
the same people then look down their noses to the people who genuinely have NOT done anything to produce testimony
Like the “good Christian women” who rejected me for still being a virgin?
Svar
October 11, 2011
“Of course Svar is heretical. But I try to meet him where he is. There is still good in him; I can feel it. ”
Thanks, van Rooinek. I’m not as heretical as I make myself seem. I don’t think Terri realizes that I’m just joking. I don’t really sacrifice horses to Christ and bang LOADS of girls in His honor. I just sacrifice geese and bang a coupla girls a month
laceagate
October 11, 2011
YES, absolutely VR. Honestly hearing about that crap makes me disgusted. I so wanted to marry a virgin. I remember having a class with a woman in her early 30′s whose bf at the time was still a virgin, and he was in his mid-30′s. Damn, I had never seen a lady who was so excited about that. They were both Christians, too.
Chastity is not a female trait-only, and I’d like to backhand the person/people/trends that decided a male virgin was beneath them.
terri
October 11, 2011
the same people then look down their noses to the people who genuinely have NOT done anything to produce testimony
Interesting, as I had a heck of trial filled childhood and still lived a terribly boring young adult life up until I married. Never had a drink. Tried to go to a nightclub and literally dozed off in the place even as the music was booming. My friend who was trying to “help” me couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t date and why I didn’t like the club scene after having lived such a repressed life under my oppressive father. I guess I was just boring that way, LOL.
While I am unspeakably grateful to God that He kept me through my trials and that I reached adulthood without having been damaged beyond repair (no one is DBR, I know. Just trying to make a point), I am equally thankful that I wasn’t a wild child. I have nothing but respect for people who have been redeemed from the sewers of life, but I also don’t know why anyone would want to claim to have lived that way if they never did.
terri
October 11, 2011
Chastity is not a female trait-only, and I’d like to backhand the person/people/trends that decided a male virgin was beneath them.
Agree 100%, Lacey.
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
I just sacrifice geese and bang a coupla girls a month
If it’s always the same couple of girls, you could qualify as an OT polygynist patriarch. As long as you use no contraception ever. The whole point of allowing polygyny was probably the maximal increase of your tribe, so everything you do with your harem must be open to the gift of life. Rough life. /sarcasm>
Svar
October 11, 2011
van Rooinek, send me an email: svarragan@gmail.com
Svar
October 11, 2011
“As long as you use no contraception ever.”
I never use contraception, are you crazy? Condoms are a waste of time.
bike bubba
October 11, 2011
Svar, I’d been under the impression that you’re not exactly needing to consider that yet, whether or not you you become Catholic……. :^)
I’m with Terri on a lot of those; the sinner’s prayer being evidence of salvation (or any sacrament apart from living faith, really), health and wealth “cacagelios” (bad news), departure from Biblical teaching on marriage (which is a lot more than marriage and divorce certificates), and in general a lack of theology.
Other things I’d put as “close to heresy” that I’ve seen are squabbles over church music (hymns only vs. no hymns allowed), King James Only, and “Trail of Blood.” Hyper-pietism, more or less.
OffTheCuff
October 11, 2011
Christians who say “I don’t regret what I did, it made me who I am today!” IOW: people who sin, do not accept accountability, abuse grace… and then have the nerve to call me a heathen. Better to be godless than a hypocrite.
terri
October 11, 2011
Hey Bike Bubba.
I can’t believe I forgot KJV only. That’s a big one.
I’m gonna go off the rails and ask about that gorgeous new baby boy of yours. And the Mrs. of course!
Christians who say “I don’t regret what I did, it made me who I am today!”
Yes, OTC. We should be sorrowful over our sins. Deeply grieved in fact.
Svar
October 11, 2011
“Better to be godless than a hypocrite.”
Indeed, OTC.
Svar
October 11, 2011
“Svar, I’d been under the impression that you’re not exactly needing to consider that yet, whether or not you you become Catholic……. :^)”
Heh, how so Bike? Btw, congratulations on your son.
A Lady
October 11, 2011
Terri, people think that sins other ppl consider bad are deeper in the basement than ‘boring’ lives. They don’t see that sinners are all in the basement, and it’s equally deep whether you were once a petty thief or a preacher’s kid who went to a Christian college and married as a virgin. Just because the PK wasn’t a petty thief doesn’t mean their less visible to people’s sin was less visible to God. Part of maturing in the faith is when ppl understand this and proclaim it.
The bragimony stuff is another lure of the world, like feminist ideology infiltrating the church. The world sees stupid decision making as cool or fun, and church folk don’t call this out. They pay out a currency of pity instead, which is just as bad. I remember doing some ‘Christian counselling’ and was unable to get useful counsel on some issues with transitioning out of my unrespectable lifestyle because the counsellor basically kept routing me towards claiming i was sexually abused and thus unable to love men, which was not what i came in there to be told. It really had nothing to do with practical spiritual matters of accountability and confession, but just seemed to be a setup for me to present a persona of being damaged beyond repair.
Anyway I didn’t return and struggled along for some months before some health issues came to the fore and sped my transition along unexpectedly. God has His ways, is all I can say.
Ulysses
October 11, 2011
King James only? Can one of you fill me in as I’ve missed that one.
terri
October 11, 2011
There are Christians who believe the King James Version is the only legitimate version of Scripture. That all the other versions we all read are misinterpreted, full of error, and all around blasphemy, LOL.
Yeah.
van Rpoinek
October 11, 2011
I remember doing some ‘Christian counselling’ and was unable to get useful counsel on some issues with transitioning out of my unrespectable lifestyle because the counsellor basically kept routing me towards claiming i was sexually abused and thus unable to love men, which was not what i came in there to be told.
Okay, I find this astounding. If I understand correctly, the counselor pushed you towards claiming experiences that you hadn’t actually had, in order to explain your current mess? Please elaborate. That’s messed up.
terri
October 11, 2011
Terri, people think that sins other ppl consider bad are deeper in the basement than ‘boring’ lives. They don’t see that sinners are all in the basement, and it’s equally deep whether you were once a petty thief or a preacher’s kid who went to a Christian college and married as a virgin. Just because the PK wasn’t a petty thief doesn’t mean their less visible to people’s sin was less visible to God. Part of maturing in the faith is when ppl understand this and proclaim it.
This is so true, Lady. As I have shared some the details of my courtship with my husband here, you know that I never meant to imply was squeaky clean before coming to genuine faith. But still, I clearly remember when I thought I was a “good person” and not the dirty rotten sinner that the Bible says I was. It was in fact the startling realization of my true spiritual state that began my search for Christ, rather than just religion and churchiness, which I had down to a science.
I agree with Van that your own story is quite astonishing.
A Lady
October 11, 2011
The counsellor had a story in her head about how women ended up with my particular lifestyle choices and she was more interested in ‘confirming’ that story than in discussing practical issues with transition, like how to relate to men and women without flirting, Scripture selections for study (though seemingly unrelated, Miriam’s story came to be pretty important to helping me transition towards a more Biblical understanding of male-female relations, for example).
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
The counsellor had a story in her head about how women ended up with my particular lifestyle choices and she was more interested in ‘confirming’ that story than in discussing practical issues
Well….as I posted further up in the thread:
“In fairness, that’s often true. Every highly promiscuous or formerly promiscuous woman whose life story I know, got her start from being raped as a teen or molested even younger than that.”
So… perhaps this counsellor had made the exact same observation of her patients, as I did of the women I dated. She was therefore convinced that you “MUST” have been similarly victimized. Following that logic, she assumed that you’d never fully get better until you got over your “denial” and dealt with the “root cause” of your troubles, the victimization event. And when you told her, repeatedly, that it simply didn’t happen, she had trouble believing you.
Did I guess right?
A Lady
October 11, 2011
Well, the pulpit preached that this was how it worked, and the counselling lady didn’t know where to go without that narrative. It was like she had a decision tree and couldn’t go on in the tree until I definitely said I was man-hating due to abuse as a child. It was surreal.
I did have severe burnout, so I was prepared to agree just to move on (I compromised with ‘i was pretty blitzed on my last working night, so probably i hated men at that point’), but even then she didn’t really know how to advise me.
In fact, that experience, along with some others, is why I keep my testimony offline , such as it is, very non-detailed, going no further than ‘i lived a bohemian lifestyle and was around some unhealthy people’. i got tired of seeing other women with a similar background get told they really weren’t responsible and couldn’t help the choices they made, but wow, Jesus rocks, right? i didn’t want to hear that (although, yes, Jesus does rock). i was responsible for my stupid, sinful decisions, but God saved me anyway. i certainly could have chosen different sins, ones more socially approved, but nobody wants to hear that, they instead want to believe the virginal-whore myth (that the whore would of course have been virginal and thus sinless if not for icky men she was forced to hate).
Chris
October 11, 2011
VR saith Jesus is my boyfriend songs.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! BLEECH! vomiting in cubicle…
I will be merciful, and warn you not to google Hillsong.
And the person who decided that male virginity was not appropriate needs a good slapping. Oh, that’s right, she was abused so it’s not her fault. We need to add therapy == gospel to the list.
Off to the airport. Will be basically incommunicado for 10 days or so.
terri
October 11, 2011
Enjoy your vacation, Chris!
van Rooinek
October 11, 2011
And the person who decided that male virginity was not appropriate needs a good slapping. Oh, that’s right, she was abused so it’s not her fault
There were 3. Two said it to my face, one behind my back.
Two were for sure rape victims, the 3rd I’m not sure. But they’d been in church long enough to know better.
Will S.
October 11, 2011
@ Chris: I thought you liked Darlene Zschech and Hillsongs. Glad to see you have some taste.
bike bubba
October 11, 2011
Svar; I was under the impression that single people, being celibate, ought have no need for condoms.
Terri; Benny’s started eating a lot better, to sometimes the relief and sometimes the exasperation of my wife.
And a further explanation of the KJV-only position; there are several variants of it, but all have in common the idea that a heretic priest named Arius somehow managed to purge the Alexandrian New Testament manuscripts (today’s examples include Codeces Sinaiticus and Vaticanus) of references to the Trinity. However, Arius was quickly excommunicated when his views became known, and for that matter Arius’ heresy was not rejection of the Trinity, but rather rejection of the Deity of Christ. KJVO advocates are somewhat vague on why Arius would ignore obvious passages dealing with the Deity of Christ like John 1 or Psalm 110.
In general, this allegation against Arius and the Alexandrian churches/manuscripts is sustained with a single quote from Dean Burgon not substantiated with evidence.
There are many KJVO explanations, from that the NT is properly translated from the Old Latin to somehow the Textus Receptus being the actual autographs (original copies) of the text. What unites all KJVO advocates that I’ve seen so far is a total lack of scholarship and a pervasive “attack” mentality towards those who do not endorse their position.
In other words, it’s what Paul describes in Galatians 5:15-20, and not what he describes in 5:22-3. The same applies to most advocates I’ve seen of the “Trail of Blood” or “Landmark” theology. Very thin gruel of evidence (KJVO is one quote, Landmark is three dubious quotes) accompanied by a flood of vitriol. Nasty stuff not in keeping with Christ’s character.
Svar
October 11, 2011
“Svar; I was under the impression that single people, being celibate, ought have no need for condoms.”
Haha, yes. You’re right. In all honesty, I have no need for them. I tend to make crude jokes that offend Terri and Jen and the other more sensitive ladies just for shits and giggles.
Alte
October 11, 2011
Catching up. We were working on a big homework assignment.
ROFL at the Python reference. Best. Movie. Ever. The Life of Brian being a very close second.
1) Iconoclasm (shunning the symbolic and only embracing feelings)
Yeah, I’ve noticed that some churches are extremely iconoclastic, to the point where their services no longer bear any resemblance to Early Church practices at all. No communion, for example.
The sinner’s prayer as concrete evidence of salvation.
The whole “evidence of salvation” thing is perplexing to me, as a Catholic, as we’re all pretty sure we’re going to Hell. LOL But seriously, I still don’t get the Sinner’s Prayer thing. Is that like confession? How can you have any evidence of salvation if you aren’t dead yet?
The extreme version of this argues that such women are still children, and in fact more innocent and sin-free than other women because they were sinned against and didn’t choose to sin.
Or just that “women are children” and therefore not at fault when they sin. Like Christian hamsters.
It was in fact the startling realization of my true spiritual state that began my search for Christ, rather than just religion and churchiness, which I had down to a science.
Oh yeah. I was churchy even when I was an atheist. Seriously. I went to Mass regularly, took communion, and everything. I even sang in the choir as an agnostic. LOL Everyone was like, “Wow, she’s such a good girl!” And nothing bad that happened to me was ever my fault. It wasn’t until after my conversion that I didn’t feel like a “good girl”, paradoxically enough, and that I finally checked that people who go looking for trouble sometimes find it.
Double E
October 12, 2011
As for heresies on this blog, I’d say that distributism ranks first.
terri
October 12, 2011
Double E:
I am still in the process of reading about distributism myself, although it doesn’t sound as insidious as you make it sound.
That said, I think* divorcing government from business (in the form of bailouts, all subsidies, etc.) would be a good start. And it would actually create a more localized economy almost by default. And isn’t that what distributism is at it core: a call for more localized economies, a system where there are more capiltalist producers not less?
*I am woefully ignorant of the intricacies of economic theory. I ask those of you who are well versed and educated to be gentle in your response.
But tell me Double E, as this question interests me much more: how is distributism a “heresy”? What about the philosophy flies in the face of Biblical truth more than an internally unchecked amassing of more and more wealth?
We Americans often forget what Jesus said about the chances of a rich man inheriting eternal life.
terri
October 12, 2011
But seriously, I still don’t get the Sinner’s Prayer thing. Is that like confession? How can you have any evidence of salvation if you aren’t dead yet?
I should have said as “assurance” of salvation, Alte. It’s a better word than “evidence” since the only concrete evidence is as you say, the actual inheritance of salvation.
The sinner’s prayer is a tactic often used by evangelicals (of which I am one, yes) to induct people into the body of Christ. It is also referred to as the prayer of salvation. Here is a version of the prayer I found at this site:
“Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”
While the prayer does cover all of the heart truths needed to become a member of the family of God, the way it has been used in the modern church is IMO, heretical. For example. Far too many people pray the prayer and walk away living the exactly same life as they did before. No change. Even after years of being a Christian. Often when those same people become concerned about their spiritual state they are told that if they prayed the prayer and meant it at the time they prayed it, they’re saved. Once saved, always saved, covered by the grace of God.
It’s this kind of “conversion” that makes it easy for people to play revolving spouses while still being in the church and not feel a bit on conviction or a moment of doubt about their standing before God. That makes it easy to live a seflish, self-centered life at the expense of everyone around you while still feeling justified. The church has taught this.
Your testimony resonated with me alte. I’m always amazed at the similarity of some of our experiences because we are so different. I sang in the choir too. I’m pretty good in fact. When I decided to stop singing so that I could examine myself and make more right and righteous choices in my life, I was told repeatedly that “no one is perfect” and “God understands”. Even in my spiritually blind state (and I was blind but beginning to see at that point), I knew that couldn’t be right. Why would God say not to do something if it was okay to do it?
But all to often, it is as you say. People care more about appearances than reality.
Alte
October 12, 2011
I think Double E needs to go back and read Acts again. Those people were straight-up communitarians. Distributism is a far more capitalist system than the Church Fathers practiced, in fact. His whine is made of much sour grapes, I think, as he is convinced that he’s going to win the lottery soon and high rent-taxation would “rob” him of his precious. LOL
I think it’s mostly that staunch libertarians tend to be purists, and they see distributism as a threat to the spread of libertarianism, rather than recognizing that it’s a viable alternative to the statism that is coming to our country. Libertarianism is almost a religion, so they take matters on faith and there is no tolerance for compromise. For the rest of us, it’s just about creating a working system which promotes both personal responsibility and the common good.
Often when those same people become concerned about their spiritual state they are told that if they prayed the prayer and meant it at the time they prayed it, they’re saved. Once saved, always saved, covered by the grace of God.
Wow, yeah. That’s crazy.
I’m a pretty good singer, too. I took lessons for years and I have the same strong soprano as one of my father’s cousins, and she was a professional opera singer. But now I just sing along quietly (so that no one around me goes deaf) in the pews. At first I gave it up because it felt hypocritical, and now my husband needs my support to keep my daughter from running away during Mass. My daughter has my singing voice, which has been a pleasant surprise. But she’s like me: no volume control. They placed me in front of the microphone when I sang harmony, as I drowned out the whole choir. LOL True story.
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
With regard to the sinner’s prayer, it also doesn’t matter how you manipulate somebody into saying it. Whether they understand what they’re saying or not, they’re saved. The prayer tent I mentioned in our town is boasting 4-5 people saved every day. Ummmm….. yeah. You can take evangelism classes that teach you how to emotionally manipulate people to bring them into the kingdom. And speaking of emotional manipulation…… many worship service practitioners use emotional manipulation to make people feel a certain way by the end of the service. Doing an alter call? Pick songs that will induce guilt. Want people to feel loved by God? Pick Jesus is my boyfriend songs. Talking about tithing today? Pick songs that will induce people feel grateful to God for his abundance. The worship service in many churches is not about bringing glory to God; in fact, they’re not about God at all. They’re about behavior control and are carefully choreographed. Emotional manipulation what Hillsong is all about. I’m sure they feel they’re really worshipping God…….
thecottagechild
October 12, 2011
The whole “getting something out of the sermon” thing as some sort of measure for whether or not to attend Church, part of the Church as entertainment crowd: I don’t like the new priest/the choir/the donuts/those damn kids taking up space/that stupid baby crying, etc, etc, etc., two thumbs down, like movie critics. Just read along in the Gospels and worship already. You can get a transcript from the Church office on Monday if you think you’ve missed some critical message, and enjoy it in peace and quiet without all that annoying humanity weighing you down.
thecottagechild
October 12, 2011
I’m a pretty good singer, too.
I used to be pretty good, but I can’t breathe anymore – I love to sing Happy Birthday to my kids in my opera voice, it embarrasses the daylights out of them, but last time I did I nearly passed out. I can’t sing out at Church, I’m too self-conscious. Our parish basically just hums along to the hymns anyway, no one’s all that enthusiastic.
Svar
October 12, 2011
“As for heresies on this blog, I’d say that distributism ranks first.”
I’m guessing that you’re not a fan of Limonov’s National Bolshevism either? Haha
Distributism was created by G. K. Chesterton and Hillaire Belloc, both real Catholics. If the Roman Catholic Church, back when it had a throbbing pair, didn’t kick them out, then they were not heretics. Simple as that.
Soon you’ll be saying that Pat Buchanan and Thomas Fleming aren’t reeeeeaaally Catholic.
Svar
October 12, 2011
CC, why can’t you breathe anymore?
Alte
October 12, 2011
Our Mass has an enormous classical choir, so they’re loud enough to drown me out if I get too over-enthusiastic. I have a different problem than lack of breath: I’m prone to breaking down into tears at the songs I like best. I didn’t do that back when I was an agnostic of course, but now the Old-Timey-Hymns move me so much that I just choke up and get out the tissues. Last time, my son patted me and said, “It’s okay, Mommy. We all love Jesus too.” LOL
Svar
October 12, 2011
Cinarnation, that’s ridiculous. Do they really do stuff like that?
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
Svar – yep, some do. Most people in these churches certainly aren’t aware of this – they just judge how good the service was based on how good they feel afterward, but I and then my son were on worship teams for years so we saw it from the inside.
joanna
October 12, 2011
Yup, Cinarnation. And then it’s oh so easy to shrug off any “word” that you did hear, as soon as you walk out the door.
thecottagechild
October 12, 2011
CC, why can’t you breathe anymore?
Oldness – it takes a lot of breath to crank it out properly, and I’m just not the windbag I used to be.
Yes, I’m a total cry-baby, too.
Svar
October 12, 2011
You’re not that old, CC. From what you’ve told us, you’re as old as my mother.
Svar
October 12, 2011
Cinarnation, what makes for a good service? I’ve only stepped inside of a church once in my entire life, so I don’t know much.
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
I’ve only stepped inside of a church once in my entire life, so I don’t know much.
Dude. Go. Since you are attracted to the RCC, get on the internet and find a Traditional Catholic service, better yet an Eastern Rite Catholic service, nearby and GO. This Sunday. If the priest appears faggy or liberal, go somewhere else next Sunday. But don’t stop until you FIND A CHURCH HOME. Preferably one where there are large families in evidence, and where there is a decent cohort of single females.
The Catholics on this site can advise you further.
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
BTW.. the most beautiful church service I ever saw, was Russian Orthodox. (Kogda ya bil molodoy, ya uchil Russki yazik v scholye.)
The eastern rite Catholics are mostly exOrthodox that reconnected with Rome centuries later. Some, such as the Maronite Catholics of Lebanon, never “schized”, but were simply out of communication with Rome, although not out of communion, for many centuries. Anyway, the eastern rite Catholics use the Orthodox order of service, and the Orthodox iconography.
Downsite of eastern rite Catholics… you may be ethnically isolated, as everyone else there may be Middle Eastern (although there are some ERCs in Eastern Europe.) Upside, many Middle Eastern chicks are hot. Upside #2, many ERC allow married priests, with full blessing from the Vatican.
Even if you go Roman, you need to see an Eastern Service, at least once.
pb
October 12, 2011
Svar, where are you in Texas?
Svar
October 12, 2011
PB, I will only answer that question in private: svarragan@gmail.com
I can not reply until six hours because I can not access my email on this device for some reason.
Svar
October 12, 2011
van Rooinek, I can not leave my house except for my doctor’s visits. I can not go to church until the end of this year.
On a brighter note, yes, many Middle-Eastern chicks are hot. I’ve noticed this.
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
van Rooinek, I can not leave my house except for my doctor’s visits. I can not go to church until the end of this year.
Dude… what’s wrong? (if you don’t mind telling)? I was once stuck at home for a year with a painful injury, but I wasn’t quarantined; I got out of the house with a cane. It still sucked though. Thank God I can run again.
My 91 year old mother watches Mass on TV. And I’m sure that the nearest Catholic church would be happy to send someone — a priest, a deacon, perhaps a trusted layman — over to the house of an invalid for religious instruction once a week. This IN ADDITION to your own scripture readings, which I hope, with the help of this site, you are already doing.
You ARE doing Alte’s daily Bible readings, aren’t you? The thunderbolts of Thor await you if you don’t.. /sarcasm>
bike bubba
October 12, 2011
Svar, praying that you will soon feel better and acquire one of those beautiful (and believing, right? RIGHT?) dark-haired ladies to wife. Hang in there!
Regarding distributism, I would say that either they are right or wrong, but Biblical economics does not in itself impair the Gospel, which would be a stricter description of heresy. In the same way, I’d strictly define KJVO/Trail of Blood as dangerously wrong and theologically damaging, but not a heresy until they start saying that you need to read only KJV to be saved and such.
The Deuce
October 12, 2011
Hmm, I’d say the heresy of our age, at least in America, is the belief that goodness is equivalent to a vague, empty niceness, and that “God is love” means that that anything we can call “loving” is automatically “of God”, and anything not-nice (like standing up for what’s right and making people feel bad about themselves in the process) is un-Christian.
terri
October 12, 2011
is the belief that goodness is equivalent to a vague, empty niceness, and that “God is love” means that that anything we can call “loving” is automatically “of God”, and anything not-nice (like standing up for what’s right and making people feel bad about themselves in the process) is un-Christian.
Yes, Deuce. That’s a good one.
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
Svar – regarding your question about what a church service should be, you’d be best off to follow Van Rooinek’s advice. I’ve only ever been in one church that didn’t do the emotional manipulation thing and that was a reformed church. I think administration of the sacraments are what a church service is supposed to be about, but I’ve never been in a church service where that was considered what it was about. What I’m saying is that I’m fairly ignorant about it because most of my experience has been in evangelical churches and I’ve become completely disillusioned about the possibility of God/good theology being the center of any service in such a church. I’m on the verge of converting to Catholicism, but the local priest is limp-wristed and feminine and he likes to hang out with the ladies for coffee, so that’s put me off a bit. Plus, my husband is supportive of me converting, but he wouldn’t, and I don’t know that it would be proper for me to do it under those circumstances.
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
Svar… why am I doing your work for you?
http://www.byzcath.org/index.php/find-a-parish-mainmenu-111?catid=93
Svar
October 12, 2011
@ van Rooinek
“Dude… what’s wrong? (if you don’t mind telling)?”
Not on here.
“You ARE doing Alte’s daily Bible readings, aren’t you? The thunderbolts of Thor await you if you don’t.. /sarcasm>”
Hahaha, I missed a few, but I plan on catching up today.
“Svar… why am I doing your work for you?”
Because you like me, van Rooinek. I like you too; I’ve learned quite a bit from you. I’m not too sure about the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Catholic Church, however. I like the Roman one better.
@ Bike Bubba
“Svar, praying that you will soon feel better and acquire one of those beautiful (and believing, right? RIGHT?) dark-haired ladies to wife. Hang in there!”
Thank you, Bike. Your prayers will help.
“(and believing, right? RIGHT?)”
Haha, yes, she will be a Believer. I won’t have it any other way.
@ Cinarnation
“What I’m saying is that I’m fairly ignorant about it because most of my experience has been in evangelical churches and I’ve become completely disillusioned about the possibility of God/good theology being the center of any service in such a church.”
I completely understand, Cinarnation. I feel the exact same way; that’s why I can not be an Evangelical Christian. Maybe Reformed, but they also think that the Pope is the anti-Christ, so no.
“Plus, my husband is supportive of me converting, but he wouldn’t, and I don’t know that it would be proper for me to do it under those circumstances.”
I think that in this case, it is okay. Your story might end up like Kathy’s.
“I’m on the verge of converting to Catholicism, but the local priest is limp-wristed and feminine and he likes to hang out with the ladies for coffee, so that’s put me off a bit.”
What…. Why are all the priests like that one priest from Gran Torino who kept on nagging Clint Eastwood? My priest is going to be cross between Pope Pius IX, Pope Pius X, and Franco Francisco. And he’s not going to hang out with the ladies for coffee, he’s going to hang out with me and my bros and we’re going to do shots every Friday and Saturday.
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
[my priest]‘s going to hang out with me and my bros and we’re going to do shots every Friday and Saturday.
Learn Gaelic. And don’t wear orange (except when hunting). Slainte!
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
I’m not too sure about the Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Catholic Church, however. I like the Roman one better
Careful. Eastern Catholic is in communion with Rome. Orthodox Churches are not. If it matters to you.
Otherwise, look for Latin mass, and watch out for Mel Gibson.
Svar
October 12, 2011
I meant to say “Oriental” not “Orthodox”.
“Learn Gaelic. And don’t wear orange (except when hunting). Slainte!”
Are you saying that if I want a masculine, badass priest that’ll do shots with me and wing for me, I’ll have to import one from Ireland? And learn a language that is pronounced “gay-lick”? I’m up for it. It’s worth the trouble.
van Rooinek
October 12, 2011
Are you saying that if I want a masculine, badass priest that’ll do shots with me and wing for me, I’ll have to import one from Ireland?
They certainly did export a lot of priests to the rest of the world. The priest with an Irish accent was once an American stereotype, and for good reason. The Irish are noteworthy, or used to be noteworthy, for their remarkable lack of homosexuality as a race. During the Australia’s days as a convict colony, it was noted that in the all male prisoner camps, English prisoners tended to turn to sodomy, but the Irish avoided it.
And learn a language that is pronounced “gay-lick”? I’m up for it. It’s worth the trouble.
Remember that I’m 5/8ths Irish and armed, before you make bogus connections between Gaelic – a noble descendant of Bronze Age IndoEuropean — and “gays”. Dun do bheal, agus na gearradh do theanga do scornach.
Svar
October 12, 2011
“The Irish are noteworthy, or used to be noteworthy, for their remarkable lack of homosexuality as a race.”
And then cometh Bono and Blair. Hate those guys.
“Remember that I’m 5/8ths Irish and armed, before you make bogus connections between Gaelic – a noble descendant of Bronze Age IndoEuropean — and “gays”.”
Noted.
“Dun do bheal, agus na gearradh do theanga do scornach.”
Come on now, no Celtic Druid Warlock curses.
laceagate
October 12, 2011
Cinarnation, what makes for a good service? I’ve only stepped inside of a church once in my entire life, so I don’t know much.
Svar, these are the things I’ve learned that make for a good church:
1. Look for the tabernacle. I’ve noticed that the wackier churches are, the less likely you are to see the tabernacle at the altar. What’s the deal with that? Why does it need to be hidden?
2. One thing I noticed at a church I was told was not a good one was how they chose to abide– or NOT abide– by liturgy. During the Lord’s Prayer where the priest normally says “…deliver us from evil,” he did not continue the prayer. At this church the priest continued all the way through with the prayer. I understood this to be a violation of the way liturgy should be followed. It is not up to the priest or the parish to decide how liturgy should and should not be followed.
3. Are there large families in the presence of the church? I was able to visit one church a few times and each time I noticed families with more children. When i say “more children,” I don’t mean I see 2 in each family. I mean I see 4+ children in these families, and I even met a woman with 7! I was also able to see that the church community was accepting of larger families. If a church doesn’t have large families in its presence, or does not appear to be accepting or foster such a community, I would hesitate.
4. Are there statues, stained glass, symbols? If a church looks iconoclastic I would not join.
5. Notice the name of the church. I never paid attention until it was pointed out to me. When a church goes from “St. Bartholomew’s Church” to “Catholic Faith Community of St. Bartholomew,” it is not a good sign. I have noticed based on reading the church bulletins from churches that call themselves “Catholic Faith Blah-Blah” tend to shirk from faith orthodoxy.
6. When you attend a Mass, listen to the homily the priest gives. If he tries to make a lot of jokes and is “nice” chances are he is less likely to have true leadership and a commanding presence in the church. This is a priest who tries to pander to the whims of liberalism in order to “make nice.”
7. Any Church that espouses Christo-feminism isn’t worth my time.
8. Look at the groups that are offered at the church. Are there groups which encourage men to join, and are led by men? If the majority of the groups are led by women and are for women, chances are that is the way the church is run too.
9. Are there lots of altar girls?
10. Look at the way women are dressed. Are most of them wearing casual clothes, such as jeans, basic t-shirts, and even immodest clothing? Are they covering? The churches I have noticed that have a true reverence for the Eucharist have people who dress appropriately to be in the presence of the Eucharist.
This is just a short list of things that I’ve been told and things I’ve noticed.
Svar
October 12, 2011
Thanks, Lacey. What about Irish priests? Are those necessary?
laceagate
October 12, 2011
I know many American priests are capable off maintaining orthodoxy. Especially younger priests, they seem to be more so.
Svar
October 12, 2011
I was joking, Lacey. It’s interesting that younger priests keep more to orthodoxy.
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
There was a vibrant, straight-shooting priest in this parish before he got sent to a different parish and the one here got the priest who prefers the company of women. The vibrant one was from Nigeria and my Catholic friends still call or email him when they need a priest and are now traveling to another parish for mass. The two nearest parishes to this one have priests from Nigeria, and there’s a convent in one of them with sisters who do spiritual direction. They’re also from Nigeria. The advice they’ve given my friends – I’m tellin’ ya’. They pull no punches – straight to the truth, no apologies, and there you are – set free. I think America has become a mission field.
Svar
October 12, 2011
Cinarnation, do you live in the South?
Svar
October 12, 2011
But, Cinarnation, do you think that a Nigeria priest is going to do shots with me and my bros like one from Eire?
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
You know, Svar, I don’t know, but if I ever get to meet him I will surely ask him for you.
I’m from the Pacific Northwest.
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
Actually, that was a weird way to say it. I live in the Pacific Northwest.
Svar
October 12, 2011
Why is that a weird way to say it, Cinarnation?
Btw, I seriously thought that you were a Southerner or something. You seem like one.
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
I’m very curious why I seem Southern.
Svar
October 12, 2011
Well, Cinarnation, I assumed that you were a Southern woman mainly because of the way you behave, the way you think, and the things you say(that’s a compliment, btw). I can’t really describe it, but you remind me of the older Southern and small-town Texas women I know.
cinarnation
October 12, 2011
Thank you, Svar. I do take that as a compliment and I’m flattered by it.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
heresy #1: “Jesus is my boyfriend songs.
heresy #2: “Jesus is my Thor. That’s why I sacrifice horses to him and bang loads of girls in His ehre. Is that heretical or blasphemous?”
Heresy #2 is a much closer approach to the truth. A pagan who understands both sacrifice and hedonism — and the connection between the two — is in a much better position to appreciate the fullness of truth, than someone who has the real deal and romanticizes it into meaninglessness.
VAN, I disagree. God as beloved is a very common theme throughout many of the world’s
religions and has given rise to much ancient, medieval and modern philosophical insights, literature, poetry, song, art and inspiration. And then you have Catholic nuns who’s
very lives revolve around the concept.
My opinion is that if more people sublimated their desire for romance and projected it onto a “God as Beloved” concept, there would be alot more contentment in the world.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Looks like van Rooinek’s insight of “Heresy #2 is a much closer approach to the truth. A pagan who understands both sacrifice and hedonism — and the connection between the two — is in a much better position to appreciate the fullness of truth, than someone who has the real deal and romanticizes it into meaninglessness.” still stands.
“My opinion is that if more people sublimated their desire for romance and projected it onto a “God as Beloved” concept, there would be alot more contentment in the world.”
That’s ridiculous. Jesus is not my boyfriend. He’s not my lover. He’s like the prototypical Indo-European Thunder God, the protector and hero of mankind.
alcestiseshtemoa
October 13, 2011
BTW.. the most beautiful church service I ever saw, was Russian Orthodox.
Interesting.
Alte
October 13, 2011
And he’s not going to hang out with the ladies for coffee, he’s going to hang out with me and my bros and we’re going to do shots every Friday and Saturday.
Ha ha. Sounds like our priest. He scares me when I go to confession. Feels like I’m being interrogated by a drill sergeant, perhaps because he used to be a lawyer. I think our parish is rather unusual, as there are more activities for the men and boys then there are for the women.
He’s rather funny, in a dry, sardonic way. And he doesn’t mince words. He gave a homily on sexual immorality (especially contraception, masturbation, and “depriving”) that was so blunt and hard-hitting that people were looking for the exits. Some actually got up and he pointed straight at them and said, “Sit down.” We were like…. whoa. Our deacons too. They’re great.
Alte
October 13, 2011
One of our deacons gave a righteous rant about people showing up for Mass looking sloppy and leaving early. They seem to enjoy ticking off their congregation, which is probably why the pews are full every Sunday.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Ha ha. Sounds like our priest. He scares me when I go to confession. Feels like I’m being interrogated by a drill sergeant, perhaps because he used to be a lawyer. I think our parish is rather unusual, as there are more activities for the men and boys then there are for the women.
He’s rather funny, in a dry, sardonic way. And he doesn’t mince words. He gave a homily on sexual immorality (especially contraception, masturbation, and “depriving”) that was so blunt and hard-hitting that people were looking for the exits. Some actually got up and he pointed straight at them and said, “Sit down.” We were like…. whoa. Our deacons too. They’re great.”
This is what I’m looking for in a priest. A mix between Pope Pius IX, Pope Pius X, and Franco Francisco. I use to think that going to church was gay, but all depends on the priest/pastor.
Does he mind being called? Could you email me his number?
“Some actually got up and he pointed straight at them and said, “Sit down.” We were like…. whoa. Our deacons too. They’re great”
What a badass. He probably does shots too.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“One of our deacons gave a righteous rant about people showing up for Mass looking sloppy and leaving early. They seem to enjoy ticking off their congregation, which is probably why the pews are full every Sunday.
”
No pandering to the Crowd and instead telling the Crowd to shut the fuck up and do as they’re told? Amazing. The RCC is starting to look better everyday.
Herbie
October 13, 2011
“He gave a homily on sexual immorality (especially contraception, masturbation, and “depriving”) that was so blunt and hard-hitting that people were looking for the exits. Some actually got up and he pointed straight at them and said, ‘Sit down.’ We were like…. whoa. Our deacons too. They’re great.”
I believe this type of well-timed ‘hard hitting’ authority utilized by priests and pastors will eventually put more people in the pews than it turns away. Sometimes we all need to get over ourselves and be put in our place.
Alte
October 13, 2011
I’m not allowed to give out my exact location (hubby’s orders), but I will say that pretty much any priest from the Baltimore or Washington diocese will be a good bet. Msgr. Pope is one of my online-favorites and very orthodox, and if you call or email him, he’ll definitely get back ASAP: http://blog.adw.org/2011/10/why-teens-leave-a-new-study/
Here is an “ask a question” form for him: http://blog.adw.org/2009/07/ask-a-question-4/
And his contact info: http://frpope.com/contact.html
Really, you should look for someone close by you, but maybe you could ask him if he could recommend a parish in your area. Priests sometimes know priests, KWIM.
Alte
October 13, 2011
What a badass.
He is a badass. LOL If I find him intimidating, you can imagine what he’s like. Very no-nonsense. He’s brought a lot of men into the seminary, and I think that’s because of his military bearing. Men like to follow a strong leader, not some wuss.
Likewise, if you look at Msgr. Pope’s threads, the majority of commenters are male. That’s a good blog to follow. He’s very even-tempered, but he doesn’t shy away from unpopular topics. He writes in a similar style to Mark Richardson. Very plain-spoken and firm. This is a good model for Christian men, I think. The sort of wild-ranting one sees on more secular blogs denotes a lack of self-control.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
@Stewart: My opinion is that if more people sublimated their desire for romance and projected it onto a “God as Beloved” concept, there would be alot more contentment in the world.
Oh… where to begin… such a target rich environment. How about this: “Not all men can accept this saying, but only those to whom it is given”. Sublimation of sexuality is literally ***not possible*** for many women and for almost all men. And it’s questionable whether it’s even desirable. When I first encountered it, it sounded downright perverted…. and 25 years later, it STILL sounds perverted. And for girls, the romanticisation of Jesus is often a barrier to romance and marriage with the Christian men who are actually available to them… so they end up disappointed, lonely, frustrated, and in their frustration all too ready to fall in the arms (and beds) of the first nonChristian alpha or gamer who tries to seduce them. It’s a real barrier to both marriage and chaste singleness, IMHO.
Holy celibacy, for those truly called to it, is a SACRIFICE not sublimation — sexuality in that case is not projected onto God (sick, sick, sick) but simply set aside. Pagans understand sacrifice.
@Stewart: God as beloved is a very common theme throughout many of the world’s religions and has given rise to much ancient, medieval and modern philosophical insights, literature, poetry, song, art and inspiration
Yes, of course. This is also the reason why legions of men feel as Svar does:
I use to think that going to church was gay
Dude, you really need to read: http://www.podles.org/church-impotent.htm And then go boar hunting and drink some mead. The true kingdom of heaven is a lot more like Valhalla than a gay bar.
Svar
October 13, 2011
I checked out that ADW blog, Alte. I like it, it’s like an exclusively Catholic version of Chronicles. Basically like Aaron D. Wolf’s blog at Chronicles, if he were a Catholic.
Btw, what do you think of the New Oxford Review? Is it a good magazine? Is it worth subscribing to? I know that Andy Nowicki writes there.
cinarnation
October 13, 2011
I simply find it impossible to focus on God when there’s some lovely young thing up on the stage singing orgasmically to Jesus. The heavy breathing, the moans, the ecstasy. Normally, said young thing is dressed in a way even I find distracting, so the effect upon especially the young men must be somewhat electric. I doubt Jesus as beloved is what’s on their minds.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“I simply find it impossible to focus on God when there’s some lovely young thing up on the stage singing orgasmically to Jesus. The heavy breathing, the moans, the ecstasy.”
Heh heh! Orgasmically, you say? I’m intrigued.
“Normally, said young thing is dressed in a way even I find distracting, so the effect upon especially the young men must be somewhat electric.”
Like thunder and lightning.
“I doubt Jesus as beloved is what’s on their minds.”
I don’t understand, Cinarnation. Why would you think that?
laceagate
October 13, 2011
I simply find it impossible to focus on God when there’s some lovely young thing up on the stage singing orgasmically to Jesus. The heavy breathing, the moans, the ecstasy. Normally, said young thing is dressed in a way even I find distracting, so the effect upon especially the young men must be somewhat electric. I doubt Jesus as beloved is what’s on their minds.
Haha, I have noticed this at some churches. The last weird church I visited had a bunch of women in the choir singing as if they were trying out for a pop single. It was distracting and rather annoying, and there was even a few men sitting in front of me who started making comments about whether or not their singing style was necessary, and how annoying it was. I wanted to laugh.
At my current church, there are a couple younger girls but the sound more like angels rather than a sexual thing. They sing the liturgy well without you thinking that they are preparing for try-outs. I can’t stand it though when the choir “tries something new” by trying to sing some song that belongs on the local Christian radio station rather than Mass. I prefer reverence, tradition, and mystogogy than a concert.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
VAN, I get what your saying. Of course you are free to approach God anyway you wish and if the God as beloved theme does not move your heart, so be it. But it is a theme that has moved millions and inspired a rich tradition of thought, literature, poetry, etc across several cultures and it is the main theme of Catholic Nuns. There’s no getting around that.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“I visited had a bunch of women in the choir singing as if they were trying out for a pop single.”
How so?
“I can’t stand it though when the choir “tries something new” by trying to sing some song that belongs on the local Christian radio station rather than Mass.”
Lets be serious-does anyone really listen to Christian music outside of Church?
Svar
October 13, 2011
“VAN, I get what your saying. Of course you are free to approach God anyway you wish and if the God as beloved theme does not move your heart, so be it. But it is a theme that has moved millions and inspired a rich tradition of thought, literature, poetry, etc across several cultures and it is the main theme of Catholic Nuns. There’s no getting around that.”
Gott in die Hemel…… red my.
joanna
October 13, 2011
Lets be serious-does anyone really listen to Christian music outside of Church?
Yes. Jars of Clay, Danielson Famile, Sara Groves, Wovenhand, Sufjan Stevens…
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
I think some of you are confusing the ancient and prolific “God as Beloved” concept with sexual projection or sexual repression. It is neither. Just as when one feels a certain kind of way when they first fall in love with another human, those same emotions are felt when one enters into a relationship with God.
Excitement, adoration, happiness, hope, loss of sleep, loss of apetite, all thoughts at all times of the day are focused on him/her. One is literally consumed by new romantic love.
The same as been described by mystics and poets throughout the ages who have described God as their all-consuming love interest.
terri
October 13, 2011
Lets be serious-does anyone really listen to Christian music outside of Church?
Yes, we do too. It’s not necessarily the same as you would hear in church, but there are artists who make music that embodies the integrity of the Christian message. And they’re not ALL “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs, either.
laceagate
October 13, 2011
LOL, Svar.
I used to be in choir so I can tell when people are using their voice to sound more “pop” versus just singing the song as it should be. For instance, when the notes are drawn out more than they should be or they attempt to sound like Christina Aguilera’s “oooOooo ayyyayaya” sort of stuff. No, I haven’t heard anything that preposterous, but I have heard singing that was borderline. It didn’t sound like liturgy.
I listen to Christian music outside of Church. I like The Benjamin Gate because they’re more rock but a lot of it sounds too preachy for me.
joanna
October 13, 2011
“like Christina Aguilera’s “oooOooo ayyyayaya””
Ah, yes. I’ve been in no less that 10 churches with Christiana Aguilera heading the band (grew up Charismatic, good times). The most recent church we tried to attend was the worse so far though. Good pastor, church too big, band too…concert-esque.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Yes. Jars of Clay, Danielson Famile, Sara Groves, Wovenhand, Sufjan Stevens…”
Wovenhand? This Wovenhand?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wovenhand
Svar
October 13, 2011
@ Terrri
“And they’re not ALL “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs, either.”
I don’t believe you, Terri. At all.
@ Lacey
“I like The Benjamin Gate because they’re more rock but a lot of it sounds too preachy for me.”
The Benjamin Gate… I just looked them up. Seems that they’re from South Africa. The only South African musician that I listen to is Bok van Blerk who sings about sports, war, and girls.
joanna
October 13, 2011
Yes, that Wovenhand.
joanna
October 13, 2011
I have Consider the Birds, and Threshingfloor and they are both really good. Bleary-eyed Duty on Consider the Birds is one of my favorite songs, ever.
Svar
October 13, 2011
This is about how Christian I’m willing to go when it comes to music:
“Spirit holy life eternal
Raise me up take me home
Pilgrim sunrise pagan sunset
Onward journey begun
To courage find and gracious will
Deliver good from ill
Clean the water clean our guilt
With us do what you will”
This is also a very Christian song regardless of the name:
“Lights out – We live in a world
of darkness
No doubt – Everything’s up for sale
We sleep – All of the world is burning
We pray – To God for a better deal
Nothing is sacred – Back then or now
Everything’s wasted…
Is that all there is?
Can I go now?”
I suspect that Iron Maiden is full of closet Christians-closet Christians who don’t believe that Jesus is their boyfriend.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Joanna, how is Wovenhand a Christian band? I’ve listened to it and it sounds like mix between Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash. The wiki article says it’s Alt-Country.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Excitement, adoration, happiness, hope, loss of sleep, loss of apetite, all thoughts at all times of the day are focused on him/her. One is literally consumed by new romantic love.
Guess I’m not a true Christian then /sarcasm>. I never experienced theolimerence. Just conviction and repentance.
It all still sounds gay to me. I was once told by a Christian woman, a counsellor no less, that I would have a much easier time handling the unmitigated misery of singleness if I would learn, as she put it, how to “get all your needs met by God.”
As I recall, I responded with a one-word question in reply…something about, my supposed “needs” neither being plural nor emotional, and intrinsically unfulfillable by a male entity. Incredibly, insanely, she answered “Yes” to that question.
We discussed it again after she got married to a very horny friend of mine. “I see now, it’s different for men”, was her contrite response.
joanna
October 13, 2011
It doesn’t have to sound “Christian.” Does “Christian” have a sound? Consider the lyrics and the overall message.
Consider this from a Wiki article:
Consider the Birds is the second album (not counting the score for Blush) by David Eugene Edwards’ Woven Hand. The album’s title comes from the Sermon on the Mount. When asked why he chose this as his album’s title, David Eugene Edwards replied, “I wanted to remind myself of the birds. I am often anxious. I need to fall on my faith more.”
I’m trying to find the lyrics to Bleary-eyed Duty.
Here’s an interesting article.
Edwards chronicles an internal struggle and his music reflects that. His lyrics speak of God’s love, but they also speak of shadows and blades. “The theme,” Edwards once told The Daily Times, “has always been the depravity of man, basically, and that relationship between man and his creator, as well as all the things that go along with that.” That would certainly explain songs like “White Knuckle Grip” (“We’re dealing with fire either way / Driving these streets in squandered time… I’m gonna dance this town to ruins / Stood close hell fire barbed wire”) or “Sparrow Falls” (“Holy king cause my skin to crawl / Away from every evil thing”).
http://www.popmatters.com/pm/column/64676-bleary-eyed-duty-the-unflinching-testimony-of-david-eugene-edwards
Svar
October 13, 2011
Exactly, van Rooinek. Loving God romantically and calling Him your boyfriend is incestuous if you’re a woman and incestuous and gay if you’re a man.
Deo Pater…. Hmmm, what do you suppose “Pater” means?
Svar
October 13, 2011
“It doesn’t have to sound “Christian.” Does “Christian” have a sound? Consider the lyrics and the overall message.”
So by that measure would Iron Maiden be Christian band?
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
I suspect that Iron Maiden is full of closet Christians-closet Christians who don’t believe that Jesus is their boyfriend.
I’ve had that thought about Ozzy, among others. I really think that Ozzy is just a hairsbreadth away from getting saved, sometimes. Also, “Ride On” by AC/DC suggests a haunting spiritual longing of the sort that tends to lead to repentance if the party lives long enough. which alas Bonn Scott didn’t.
Iron Maiden may be trapped in something they DON’T want to be involved in. Read the lyrics of the Number of the Beast very carefully….I don’t want to post them here, but one gets the feeling they were invited to a gathering and witnessed something… something that made them want to call the law!!!!! … and now they are terrified.
joanna
October 13, 2011
I like music a lot, and it’s been a tough road to find music with a godly message that didn’t sound stupid. When my husband and I were married we combined to have almost 400 CDs, mainly on the “alternative” and indie rock side. From pretty mainstream stuff like REM to little known bands like Jale. As an act of dedication to God, we scratched and threw them ALL away. We have maybe a dozen bands we like and 40 CD, now. That’s it. After 10 years of searching and collecting.
My big beef with church music is it’s so concert-like. I can get more prepared in my heart to hear the word if the music isn’t so loud and the light show isn’t so ostentatious. But I do think that there is music out there that has a godly, worshipful message and isn’t cheesy Contemporary Christian stuff or hard core metal or rap.
joanna
October 13, 2011
No, Iron Maiden is not a Christian band.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Deo Pater…. Hmmm, what do you suppose “Pater” means?
Pater and all its IndoEuropean cognates mean, Father.
Random thought. When my boys (8, 6, 3) get scared in the night, they want to snuggle with Daddy to feel safe. They sleep in my arms sometimes, even the 8 year old. They love their Daddy dearly, and hug and kiss me when I leave for work. This is an earthly picture of the relationship we are supposed to have with God… our Father in heaven… and there is NOTHING remotely romantic about it.
Therefore I conclude that the 12th century romanticism/sexualization of the faith (which Leon Podles wrote of, which the Eastern church missed, and which the Protestants tried to rebel against), is just plain erroneous.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
As an act of dedication to God, we scratched and threw them ALL away
I still remember the day I smashed all my AC/DC albums. **sigh** Best music ever.
Svar
October 13, 2011
@ van Rooinek
I know right? Something is amiss. Have you seen this song by WASP?:
“Babylon’s a-burning, Babylon’s a-burning
Six hundred 6, 6 and 7 seals
A pale rider and his horses sing
Babylon’s a-burning, Babylon’s a-burning
Six hundred 6, 6 the rising beast
Bears the mark of Babylon to be”
I just went and listened to “Ride On” and looked up the lyrics to “Number of the Beast”. I see what you mean.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Also, have you checked out the recent Judas Priest albums? Stuff like this:
“Angel – put sad wings around me now
Protect me from this world of sin
So that we can rise again
Oh angel – we can find our way somehow
Escaping from the world we’re in
To a place where we began
And I know we’ll find
A better place and peace of mind
Just tell me that it’s all you want – for you and me
Angel won’t you set me free “
Cinarnation
October 13, 2011
Josh Garrels – free album here: http://joshgarrels.com/
The difference between Jesus is My Boyfriend and God as Beloved is in the former the focus is on how Jesus makes me feel and in the latter the focus is all on the glory of the Beloved.
Svar
October 13, 2011
@ van Rooinek
“Pater and all its IndoEuropean cognates mean, Father.”
It was a rhetorical question. I was just trying to make a point. Trying to make your father(or Father in this case) your boyfriend is gross.
“Random thought. When my boys (8, 6, 3) get scared in the night, they want to snuggle with Daddy to feel safe. They sleep in my arms sometimes, even the 8 year old. They love their Daddy dearly, and hug and kiss me when I leave for work. This is an earthly picture of the relationship we are supposed to have with God… our Father in heaven… and there is NOTHING remotely romantic about it. ”
Exactly. I wouldn’t say that my feelings towards God are really in that way. I feel towards Him what I felt towards the old coaches of mine that I would highly respect. I don’t really feel towards Him what a young boy feels towards his father-yet.
“I still remember the day I smashed all my AC/DC albums. **sigh** Best music ever.”
Why’d you smash them?
@ Joanna
“No, Iron Maiden is not a Christian band.”
I don’t think it is either, but I’m curious; why do you say that?
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Svar: I feel towards Him what I felt towards the old coaches of mine that I would highly respect.
That, too, is a righteous and Biblical picture. The scripture uses athletic and even military analogies to explain the relationship with God.
Why’d you smash them?
Oh, I thought I was doing the work of God. I was a brand new believer. All the Christians said that music was evil.
Also, I was an emotional wreck in the extreme because, at 19, I had fallen deeply in love for the first time in my life, and shortly thereafter, learned that the girl was a lesbian. Messes with your head.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
VAN, I think you’re missing the point here. Finding inspiration in the God as beloved concept does not mean one gets their sexual needs met through God, whether male or female. Masterbation has always been the go-to friend of the celibate. We get our needs met with our own hands. LOL. However it is true that the more one becomes absorbed in the bliss of God, material needs and desires wane. Its a gradual process and one that correlates with the aging process as well.
God as Beloved is a metaphysical/philosophical concept. I’ve never heard anyone actually say “Jesus is my boyfriend” but I’ll take the commenters here at their word that its happened.
joanna
October 13, 2011
Svar – in the same way that personally, if I am a Christian, I am to conform to Christ and my outward actions will affirm that I have accepted Jesus as my Redeemer and been saved, Iron Maiden as a band needs to do that, too. I don’t get tattoos of devils on my arms, I don’t swear, I don’t gossip. I fail all the time at walking on the straight and narrow (including with swearing and gossiping), but I try to show by my actions that I have been changed by God.
I think that IF Iron Maiden is a Christian band, they need to reconsider their artwork and their lyrics, just for starters. I read that the drummer of Iron Maiden has been a born again Christian since 1999, but seriously, I question his conversion if he thinks Iron Maiden is a good witness.
http://www.godscare.net/witness/Iron%20Maiden.htm
Alte
October 13, 2011
We still listen to AC/DC. That’s my husband’s favorite band. But lately we listen mostly to Donikkl.
Btw, what do you think of the New Oxford Review?
Don’t know of it.
Van, a review of that book will be coming up after we finish the Creed. Thanks for the link.
Svar
October 13, 2011
I see, Joanna. Makes sense. Read this conversation between me and Samson: http://samsonsjawbone.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/new-band-battlelore/#comment-628
It does seem that their lyrics are shifting in a different direction.
Alte
October 13, 2011
at 19, I had fallen deeply in love for the first time in my life, and shortly thereafter, learned that the girl was a lesbian.
Ha ha! You really know how to pick ‘em. Funny that you should write that because my boyfriend in high school experienced the exact same thing, right before we started dating. Got dumped for a girl. Totally sucks.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
VAN, ”Why’d you smash them?
Oh, I thought I was doing the work of God. I was a brand new believer. All the Christians said that music was evil.
Also, I was an emotional wreck in the extreme because, at 19, I had fallen deeply in love for the first time in my life, and shortly thereafter, learned that the girl was a lesbian. Messes with your head.”
Precisely why many people feel religion can be a bad influence on the young. Young people, with their hormones raging and all the idealism, energy, confusion and inexperience of youth mixed with an over-emotional, unintellectual, imbalanced and misguided concept of God/spirituality can be a potent mix giving rise to extremism. Many extremist religious leaders know that and they purposely manipulate that and take advantage of it.
Hence why I feel children should be trained from a young age in dispassionate philosophy. It allows us to use our intellect and analytic skills when confronted with any religious zealotry.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Finding inspiration in the God as beloved concept does not mean one gets their sexual needs met through God, whether male or female.
I have been directly told the opposite.
Masterbation has always been the go-to friend of the celibate.
Not according to the Catholic Church.
However it is true that the more one becomes absorbed in the bliss of God, material needs and desires wane. Its a gradual process and one that correlates with the aging process as well.
Still haven’t experienced that. Still get hungry twice a day, and horny a lot more often than that. If it hasn’t started to fade by age 48, when exactly IS it supposed to start fading?
Also…. applying Occam’s razor — assuming that desires do eventually fade with the aging process, isn’t it logical to suppose that the aging process is the SOLE cause of the fading? “I struggled with the sin of lust for decades, and in my early 80′s I finally got delivered of it… Praise G-d for His miracles!” /sarcasm>
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
VAN, you might want to consider that you are simply not spending enough time in spiritual practice for your material needs/desires to show any signs of waning yet. They won’t wane in the neophyte because the neophyte is not ripe. They will wane in the adept. Adepts utilize most of their time in spiritual practice. Commenting on blogs doesn’t count! LOL.
Yes, masterbation is considered a sin in the CC, as are many things. Does that mean Catholics don’t do it?
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Ha ha! You really know how to pick ‘em. Funny that you should write that because my boyfriend in high school experienced the exact same thing, right before we started dating. Got dumped for a girl. Totally sucks.
I should have realized something was wrong when she told me her Dad took her elk hunting. Or the fact that she was AFROTC and looking to become a combat pilot. I thought I’d found my perfect blonde rightwing Valkyrie… (Svar, take note: Valhalla isn’t all it’s cracked up to be!)
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
you might want to consider that you are simply not spending enough time in spiritual practice for your material needs/desires to show any signs of waning yet.
Or maybe it’s because I’m doing something RIGHT… like nutrition and exercise.
http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional-diets/ancient-dietary-wisdom
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Adepts utilize most of their time in spiritual practice
Do they have jobs?
Morticia
October 13, 2011
I don’t think that the “Jesus is my boyfriend” approach to a relationship with God is all that heretical..at least not in the CC. Many of the Saints writings have a romantic tone. Story of a Soul (Theresa of Lisieux) comes to mind.
I think that each person has a unique relationship to God. Some might be particularly devoted to Christ the King, others to Christ the Infant, and others to Christ on the Cross. None of them are wrong as long as they are sufficiently reverent and don’t result in any actual sins.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
VAN, if bringing a very strong libido under your control is your aim, there are certain types of rigorous exercise that you should avoid because it increases testosterone. This is precisely what I mean by “neophyte”. You are not adept in the practices of sense control and you might be utilizing too much of your time in non-godly pursuits that are actually at odds with spiritual advancement.
I’m assuming you’re Catholic, right? If so, have you ever spent time with nuns or monks? Have you ever discussed with them their spiritual practices, meditation techniques and what they do regarding their own personal sexual desires?
I recommend a contemplative order for guidance.
Alte
October 13, 2011
Those saints were dedicated to celibacy though. Once you’ve given up sex for good, it doesn’t really matter. The problem is bringing that sort of thing into normal church services.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
We are suppose to be engaged in spiritual practice while simultaneously living our life and fulfilling our responsibilities.
Brother Lawrence wrote about this in The Practice of the Presence of God.
http://www.practicegodspresence.com/brotherlawrence/practicegodspresence09.html
Sadly, I am not spiritually adept anymore because I came across a particular stumbling block I have not been able to cross yet.. but when I was I had no problem living in a near constant state of contemplative prayer even when life was very very busy.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
I’m assuming you’re Catholic, right?
No.
If so, have you ever spent time with nuns or monks? Have you ever discussed with them their spiritual practices, meditation techniques and what they do regarding their own personal sexual desires?
I prefer to have such discussions with my wife. After the kids are asleep.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
“I don’t think that the “Jesus is my boyfriend” approach to a relationship with God is all that heretical..at least not in the CC. Many of the Saints writings have a romantic tone. Story of a Soul (Theresa of Lisieux) comes to mind.
I think that each person has a unique relationship to God. Some might be particularly devoted to Christ the King, others to Christ the Infant, and others to Christ on the Cross. None of them are wrong as long as they are sufficiently reverent and don’t result in any actual sins.”
EXCELLENT comment, Morticia. In several comments above I address this. God as Beloved is a common theme across many cultures and religions since ancient times.
Another theme is God as parental figure. Another, God as best friend. Another, God as child, and there are many more.
It depends upon the psychological make-up of the devotee how he or she approaches a relationship with God.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
“I prefer to have such discussions with my wife. After the kids are asleep.”
Ah, ok. I thought you were single.
Anyway, I think us celibates and sexually active folks probably have a disconnect somewhere between us. For me, God as Beloved makes perfect sense. And it has nothing to do with a perverted sexuality. I do not, for example, think about God when I’m masterbating. In fact, such holy thoughts would immediately kill my desire to masterbate.
Svar
October 13, 2011
@ van Rooinek
“VAN, if bringing a very strong libido under your control is your aim, there are certain types of rigorous exercise that you should avoid because it increases testosterone.”
Stewart = the reincarnation of Doctor Kellog?
This guy is definitely a fruitcake. van Rooinek has a wife to bang, so he doesn’t need to keep his strong libido under control.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“I don’t think that the “Jesus is my boyfriend” approach to a relationship with God is all that heretical..at least not in the CC.”
SSPX hier I kom!!
Seriously, “Jesus is my boyfriend” is gay.
“Many of the Saints writings have a romantic tone. Story of a Soul (Theresa of Lisieux) comes to mind.”
I’ll bet Pope Pius X never considered Jesus to be his boyfriend.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“I thought I’d found my perfect blonde rightwing Valkyrie… (Svar, take note: Valhalla isn’t all it’s cracked up to be!)”
Hahaha! Scale of 1-10, how hot was she?
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Anyway, I think us celibates and sexually active folks probably have a disconnect somewhere between us. For me, God as Beloved makes perfect sense
Well… I was unwillingly celibate til age 38. And it *** NEVER*** made sense.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Stewart: “I do not, for example, think about God when I’m masterbating. In fact, such holy thoughts would immediately kill my desire to masterbate”
Sounds to me like you are in no position to be telling anyone else about getting sexuality under control. No offense intended, but you’re getting all pious on me because my drive isn’t fading with age, and suggesting that I hang out with monks and give up exercising (!) to get my drives under control. Are YOU doing all that? It doesn’t seem to be working for you.
My advice to you, if you want any, is just get married if at all possible.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Exactly, van Rooinek. I have no clue what the fuck this guy’s deal is. He talks about being “celibate” and bitches at you for your sex drive and then gives us a sneak preview of his Masturbation Diaries.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Svar – It certainly added levity to a day of boring paperwork.
But I need to focus more intensely now, so I’m dropping off the site for the rest of the day.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
except that I can’t stop laughing…
Alte
October 13, 2011
I’ll bet Pope Pius X never considered Jesus to be his boyfriend.
Well, yeah, but he was a man. Theresa was a girl.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
There are different charisms. I put that dopamine surge that Stewart describes in the category of charism…some people get it and some people don’t. It is like speaking in tongues.. it is a spiritual gift that neither validates nor invalidates salvation.
I highly doubt that all people are capable of the feelings towards God that some are. If you look around charismatic circles you don’t see a lot of engineers. I am sure right-brained vs left-brained dominate people receive different spiritual gifts.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Well, yeah, but he was a man. Theresa was a girl.”
Even more proof that men are awesome and that girls stink.
I have noticed that women are really into the “Jesus is my Boyfriend” deal. What’s up with that?
Svar
October 13, 2011
Morticia, stop being so tolerant and inclusive. Tolerance and inclusiveness are gay.
bike bubba
October 13, 2011
WASP? They’re still around? I remember helping a couple of friends do a skit in German class involving their song “Love Machine”. I can still sing the chorus (in English or German), but I think you’ll thank me if I don’t. :^)
That said, I grew up a bit of a metalhead, but walked away from most of it after a couple of sweet young ladies started singing “You shook me all night long.” I could never understand the words when they were sung by Hillary Clinton (I mean Brian Johnson), but when those two sang them….’oy weh!
I can imagine how metal might give the impression of the singers being close to coming to Christ, though; they’re not afraid to use spiritual language in their songs. Didn’t the Scorpions sing something like “send me an angel”?
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
“Well… I was unwillingly celibate til age 38. And it *** NEVER*** made sense.”
The key word there being “unwillingly”. That’s why celibacy and God as Beloved makes no sense to you, nor should it. Not all are called to this path nor is it a requirement of everyone or even most people.
Advising someone to get married and have kids just because they have a libido and ocassionaly masterbate means that not a single (celibate)priest, pope, monk or nun from any tradition would have ever come into existence.
ALL humans have lust. Its biology.
Be careful not to confuse libido with the desire and ability to be a good spouse and parent.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
Alte
October 13, 2011
I have noticed that women are really into the “Jesus is my Boyfriend” deal.
I understand it, as I sort of developed a crush on Jesus after converting, but it needs to stay out of church services so that the more masculine types don’t get turned off.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
“I have noticed that women are really into the “Jesus is my Boyfriend” deal.”
Details? Give some concrete examples as to how this plays out in church sermons and in the conversations and lives of church goers.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Details?”
No.
“Give some concrete examples as to how this plays out in church sermons and in the conversations and lives of church goers.”
No.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Re: Music
When I’m not listening to masculine forms of music like heavy metal(mainly Iron Maiden), I listen to other forms of masculine music like this:
Epic Beard Man can really sing a tune. And it’s about a young man talking about his grandpa and his grandpa’s life. Heartwarming AND masculine.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Hilarious, Morticia.
“I understand it, as I sort of developed a crush on Jesus after converting”
I, OTOH, have a reverence for the King.
I like calling Him “Christ” better than “Jesus”.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
“I have noticed that women are really into the “Jesus is my Boyfriend” deal.”
Details? Give some concrete examples as to how this plays out in church sermons and in the conversations and lives of church goers.
Jumping back in… unwillingly…If they’re getting emotional/romantic needs met by “Jesus” (their mental projection of Jesus, not necessarily the real deal), this insulates them from dating earthly men who might actually marry them. Jesus, after all, is the ultimate unattainable Alpha per game theory. Simply put, the “Jesus is my boyfriend” insanity makes it a LOT harder to get married. It’s right up there with the no-dating mentality, with which it often exhibits comorbidity.
Advising someone to get married and have kids just because they have a libido and ocassionaly masterbate means that not a single (celibate)priest, pope, monk or nun from any tradition would have ever come into existence.
The Apostle Paul said the opposite. For those who can’t control themselves (which, by your own admission, is you), his wise and sage counsel is:
“…if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire”
1st Corinth. 7:9 http://www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians7.htm
Morticia
October 13, 2011
A woman who doesn’t pedestalize Jesus as the “perfect man” is all the more likely to pedestalize a human man to her detriment. Women yearn for a man who will understand and cherish them the way that no human man is capable of.
Many marriages have ended because a wife made her husband an idol and when he failed to live up to her lofty expectations she dumped him.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
“Jumping back in… unwillingly…If they’re getting emotional/romantic needs met by “Jesus” (their mental projection of Jesus, not necessarily the real deal), this insulates them from dating earthly men who might actually marry them.”
That’s head in the clouds theory. I asked for concrete examples. What does “getting their emotional/romantic needs met by Jesus” exactly mean? How does it play out? Do they say, “I’m not going to ever date or marry because I have channelled all of my emotions into Jesus” to people at church? Are sermons given that explicitly tell people to do this?
Details.
Otherwise it looks like you are interpreting an unmarried woman’s (or a man’s) involvement in religion as “oh, spending all their time in religious activities and talking about God mmeans they have made Jesus their boyfriend”.
ORegarding Paul, masterbation is actually a form of controlling one’s passions. Instead of forcing myself on someone else whenever I get the urge, I release it myself. Takes just a few minutes and the I’m able to get on with the rest of my day without having to drag someone else into it.
I don’t want kids.
Svar
October 13, 2011
Ahh, van Rooinek, looks like you decided to poke a hole in Stewart’s claims of “celibacy”. I thought it spoke for itself and I was just going to let it stand as an obvious indicator of cognitive dissonance. Props.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“ORegarding Paul, masterbation is actually a form of controlling one’s passions. Instead of forcing myself on someone else whenever I get the urge, I release it myself. Takes just a few minutes and the I’m able to get on with the rest of my day without having to drag someone else into it. ”
Fucking moron, you’re not celibate: http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/modern-heresies-blasphemies/#comment-31321
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Otherwise it looks like you are interpreting an unmarried woman’s (or a man’s) involvement in religion as “oh, spending all their time in religious activities and talking about God mmeans they have made Jesus their boyfriend”. ”
False dichotomy. van Rooinek, don’t waste your time on this guy.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
what does “getting their emotional/romantic needs met by Jesus” exactly mean?
Hell if I know. But I’ve heard it said. I have no idea how it plays out.
Do they say, “I’m not going to ever date or marry because I have channelled all of my emotions into Jesus”
Yes, I’ve actually heard that sort of thing spoken aloud. Crazy. They don’t say “never” but in practice it’s likely to end up being “never”.
masterbation is actually a form of controlling one’s passions
Check the Catechism of the Catholic Church on that. If you search online, be sure to spell it right: masturbation
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
If anyone here thinks Catholic priests, monks or nuns don’t masterbate, I have some salt to sell you at 100 euros per kg.
Morticia, what is your take on Pope Joan? I saw a documentary about her recently.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
I have to agree that Stewart is not celibate in the strictest sense if he willingly masturbates.
However, I also agree with him that marrying a woman just so you have your own personal cum receptacle isn’t taking the institution of marriage seriously enough.
Women don’t exist for the primary purpose of satisfying the male sexual urge. I think that it is taking St Paul out of context to suggest that general horniness is enough to enter into a valid marriage.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
I don’t know anything about Pope Joan.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“If anyone here thinks Catholic priests, monks or nuns don’t masterbate, I have some salt to sell you at 100 euros per kg.”
Bullshit rationalization. Why don’t you first learn how to spell “masturbate” before you sell me salt?
If you think that you’re celibate, I have some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you.
Alte
October 13, 2011
I read a German book about her before, but she’s a fictional character.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Pope Joan”? Are you kidding me? This guy is an idiot. Women can not be Popes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan
“Pope Joan is a legendary female Pope who, it is purported, reigned for a few years some time in the Middle Ages. The story first appeared in the writings of 13th-century chroniclers, and subsequently spread through Europe. It was widely believed for centuries, though modern historians and religious scholars consider it fictitious, perhaps deriving from historicized folklore regarding Roman monuments or from anti-papal satire.”
Just a myth.
This guy is an obvious troll.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
think that it is taking St Paul out of context to suggest that general horniness is enough to enter into a valid marriage.
Of course that’s not enough to ENTER a marriage. There’s a lot of other factors to consider — being equally yoked, for instance.
But, it’s clear from the context that, general horniness is a sufficient condition to PURSUE marriage.
And conversely, the lack of it, or the ability to completely control it, is evidence of a possible celibate calling. That, for St Paul, is the deciding factor. He doesn’t seem to care if you want kids or not, if you have emotional needs or not. The only deciding point in 1Cor7 is, can you handle celibacy, or not.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
Women not getting married isn’t actually a bad thing. They can do a lot more good in the world as a faithful single person.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
Masterbation is not the issue. If those priests who molested little boys just stuck to masterbation like the rest of us “celibates” do, there would have been no damning controversy in the CC.
Just as it takes a certain psychological makeup to live single for one’s entire life, so it also takes a certain psychological makeup to be a spouse and parent.
I don’t have what it takes to be a spouse or parent. I’m not the least bit interested in that.
Don’t fool yourselves into thinking “celibates” are without lust. We are not. But we are generally without the capacity for married and family life. There is a huge difference.
Of course, like I said earlier, the more one engages their time and energy in the spiritual, the more the material wanes, and that is also correlated to the aging process.
But it does not happen over night.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“However, I also agree with him that marrying a woman just so you have your own personal cum receptacle isn’t taking the institution of marriage seriously enough. ”
Sez a woman
“Women don’t exist for the primary purpose of satisfying the male sexual urge.”
Wait, what? Then why do women exist, Morticia?
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
… and Stewart has been handling his celibacy a little too much….
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Women not getting married isn’t actually a bad thing. They can do a lot more good in the world as a faithful single person
Unless they leave a lot of men high and dry, who should have been married. And realistically, none of those women have (or want) a celibate calling. They want to marry, as they get older they mourn their lack of marriage, but the “Jesus-Boyfriend” complex skews their expectations so as to prevent it.
Morticia
October 13, 2011
Van Rooinek- I think I agree that being “aflame” with lust is a sign that one might not be called to celibacy..I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that any incidences of masturbation would mean the same thing. I am sure it is not uncommon for everyone to slip-up and commit the sin now and then. I guess it depends more on how frequent and compulsive it is.
Svar
October 13, 2011
This guy is not only a dumbshit who can’t spell, or learn the definition of “celibacy”, he doesn’t have any reading comprehension either.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
“Women don’t exist for the primary purpose of satisfying the male sexual urge.”
Wait, what? Then why do women exist, Morticia?
Svar, don’t provoke Morticia. She’s a nice person.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“I am sure it is not uncommon for everyone to slip-up and commit the sin now and then. I guess it depends more on how frequent and compulsive it is.”
People slip-up, but they don’t plan it and try to back-rationalize it and then still claim celibacy.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Svar, don’t provoke Morticia. She’s a nice person.”
van Rooinek, I know that Morticia is a nice person. I like her. I’m just teasing her.
terri
October 13, 2011
On the music issue:
We listen to contemporary Christian/gospel music most of the time. However, we do not believe Christians are only allowed to Christian music or that all secular music is evil. We don’t believe that God is dishonored when we listen to secular music even though we don’t listen to it constantly.
We enjoy smooth jazz, and I have never been able to shake my love of the Commodores which my sister blasted from her room a great deal when I was a kid. I still like that music.
Morticia said something very important on the subject of Jesus as Our Beloved:
A woman who doesn’t pedestalize Jesus as the “perfect man” is all the more likely to pedestalize a human man to her detriment. Women yearn for a man who will understand and cherish them the way that no human man is capable of.
I couldn’t agree more. In fact, my ability to recognize that there are parts of my spirit that only Jesus is capable of fulfilling has enhanced my marriage and caused me to love my husband more selflessly. I can extend him grace in his humanity in ways that I could never do if I expected him to be perfect, my everything.
The funny thing is that I have been accused of worshiping my husband when nothing could be farther from the truth. I stopped being a groupie and became an eyes wide open wife many years ago. I just strongly believe in doing him good and being a wife his heart can safely trust in.
All that said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing Jesus as our friend and one who loves us with a pure unconditional love as well as a Messiah, teacher, and king. The two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. Scripture calls Him our Elder Brother, and we joint heirs with him. He is not referred to as a lover.
The phrase “bride of Christ” refers to the church universal, the body as a whole, not the individual members within it.
Alte
October 13, 2011
They want to marry, as they get older they mourn their lack of marriage
Only if they’re not in a lay or religious order. It’s growing old and alone that’s so depressing, but the RCC protects people — male and female — from the cats.
terri
October 13, 2011
It just occurred to me that you white people probably have no idea who The Commodores are, though some of you might remember Lionel Richie as a solo act. I was never a huge fan of Richie as a solo act. Anyway:
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
“Van Rooinek- I think I agree that being “aflame” with lust is a sign that one might not be called to celibacy..I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that any incidences of masturbation would mean the same thing. I am sure it is not uncommon for everyone to slip-up and commit the sin now and then. I guess it depends more on how frequent and compulsive it is.”
True.
If any of you ever enter a monastic order you will have to become comfortable discussing this without getting so emotional and offended. I think my comments have upset the naive belief some of you want to hold that your priests, monks and nuns are snow-white and without lust.
We aren’t
We are human, just like you.
terri
October 13, 2011
On a serious note though Svar, there is some good Christian music being produced. You just have to be willing to do a little research to find it.
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
Morticia said something very important on the subject of Jesus as Our Beloved
No real names. Remember?
Editor: Thanks, Van. Sorry Morticia.
All that said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing Jesus as our friend and one who loves us with a pure unconditional love as well as a Messiah, teacher, and king. The two perspectives are not mutually exclusive. Scripture calls Him our Elder Brother, and we joint heirs with him. He is not referred to as a lover.
The phrase “bride of Christ” refers to the church universal, the body as a whole, not the individual members within it.
What an eminently sensible perspective.
Alte
October 13, 2011
I like the Fray:
Svar
October 13, 2011
“I think my comments have upset the naive belief some of you want to hold that your priests, monks and nuns are snow-white and without lust.”
No, the fact that you’re an obvious troll is annoying and you’re sure as fuck not a priest or a monk. You’re just a troll.
terri
October 13, 2011
My kids love The Fray as well.
I like Sanctus Real, Israel Houghton, and old time gospel like the Gaithers. Here’s Sanctus Real:
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
Terri, that tune is dope!
Alte
October 13, 2011
What about Creed?
terri
October 13, 2011
Terri, that tune is dope!
I know, right?! The Commodores are timeless, LOL. At least to those of us born in the 70′s.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
van Rooinek
October 13, 2011
editor… 7:10 post still has a real name. You need to scroll up the… ahem… page… a bit.
Alte
October 13, 2011
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
The imagery is one of matrimony, that is; the joy of becoming a nun like the joy of one’s wedding day, but even greater, because the spouse is not a man, but Jesus Christ Himself.
threerisingsuns
Morticia
October 13, 2011
I often relate secular songs to my relationship with God.
This is probably kind of funny but this song by Adam Lambert has lyrics that are really spiritually meaningful to me even though I am pretty sure that wasn’t the intent of the songwriter.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
Catholic nuns wear wedding bands. I think you all are conveniently ignoring the very real “God as Beloved” and “Jesus as Husband” themes that are prevelant in the CC.
What about it gets your goat so much? That some women would prefer divine spouses over mundane ones?
Alte
October 13, 2011
And then there’s the really obvious stuff, like the Cranberries
Svar
October 13, 2011
This song has a lot of spiritual meaning to me:
Svar
October 13, 2011
This song really speaks to my soul:
Morticia
October 13, 2011
Svar
October 13, 2011
This song is very Godly and makes think about how much I love being Jesus’s boyfriend:
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
Svar
October 13, 2011
Basically I find any song about sports, war, sex, having a twelve-inch dick and a dozen roses, alcohol, and bitchez to be very spiritually uplifting.
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
Professionally recorded, non-raw version. sounds better, actually
Alte
October 13, 2011
Svar,
You’re a trip.
thecottagechild
October 13, 2011
It just occurred to me that you white people probably have no idea who The Commodores are
Are you crazy?- they are totally swpl – I saw them in concert on my birthday in 8th grade, and I have Easy and Brick House on my ipod, along with Hollywood Swingin’ which is ancient Kool and the Gang who are also awesome.
If those priests who molested little boys just stuck to masterbation like the rest of us “celibates” do, there would have been no damning controversy in the CC.
Just…vomit. And please spell masturbate correctly, otherwise it’s creepy.
What about Creed?
Lots of their stuff is overtly religious – Arms Wide Open, Higher, One Last Breath, Sacrifice….for a while there I think Scott Stapp thought he was Jesus in leather britches.
Double E
October 13, 2011
“the RCC protects people from the cats”
LOL.
I think you’ve got the basis for a membership drive there.
Alte
October 13, 2011
The Commodores are definitely SWPL. We’ve got loads of music like that.
Another Christian band:
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
I’m partial to songs praising The Most High Jah and his sacrament, ganja, personally, even if I never partake of that particular sacrament myself. The music is dope, literally!
thecottagechild
October 13, 2011
How funny, I was just about to paste six pence over – my kids love them.
Alte
October 13, 2011
What about Dido?
Alte
October 13, 2011
Cold Play
@ stewart
October 13, 2011
Much of Bob Marley’s music was always overtly Biblical, Godly and religious, as is common in the reggae genre.
Alte
October 13, 2011
I don’t really listen to a lot of “Christian bands”, but I do listen to a lot of music with Christian imagery in it.
Svar
October 13, 2011
This song makes me feel very fuzzy inside; it’s very family-oriented:
Alte
October 13, 2011
Svar,
At some point you’ll have emptied all of youtube of violent smut, and then you’ll have to move on to the decent stuff. LOL
Svar
October 13, 2011
Delete that last post, I didn’t mean to copy/paste “Candidate for Suicide”. I was just searching the interwebz for the most borderline offensive songs and the last one crosses the line.
Svar
October 13, 2011
“Svar,
At some point you’ll have emptied all of youtube of violent smut, and then you’ll have to move on to the decent stuff. LOL”
Haha, I stayed away from the Satanic bands and the Nazi bands. Atleast.
Alte
October 13, 2011
I think you’ve got the basis for a membership drive there.
Hey, it worked in the Middle Ages… we’re entering another Dark Period and people might be grateful for some cat-free community.
I was just searching the interwebz for the most borderline offensive songs and the last one crosses the line.
Yeah, you’re very teenager-y. Shit-testing Terri and I out of sheer boredom. *roll eyes*
Svar
October 13, 2011
This song reminds me of Christmas:
This song helps me appreciate the deepness of love. It truly makes my heart flutter:
Alte
October 13, 2011
Svar,
Have you finished catching up on your Bible readings? Hint, hint.